Asteroids, Asteroids and More Asteroids - Side A

Tristan Paylor  00:05

Hello, and welcome to the astrology hotline where we answer your questions about your birth chart or about astrology in general. Today is Thursday, August 5, my name is Tristan Paylor, and hosting with me today is Kyle Pierce. Hello. We have a special episode for you today. Our question comes from Porter, who wants to know what our thoughts are about the asteroids in astrology? And as it turns out, we have so many thoughts that we decided just to devote an entire episode to this particular question.

Kyle Pierce  00:46

Yeah, before receiving this question, I had really been quite dismissive of the asteroids. Initially, you know, in my initial studies of astrology, we did like what a lot of people do is just I read, you know, ooh, that's descriptions of my, you know, my Juno sign or, or this or that. And, you know, thought it was interesting. But then, you know, once I got into more traditional forms of astrology, I really just kind of stopped paying attention to them all together. But this question definitely prompted some research that surprisingly, changed my perspective on them had a deep impact, if you will. That's a that's upon based on the movie Deep Impact in which asteroid hits hits the earth it? But yeah, how about you, Tristan, what is your experience with the asteroids? Before?

Tristan Paylor  01:45

The the Deep Impact reference is not lost on me for what that's worth. Yeah, I'm in a similar boat. I was a little interested in them when I first got into astrology. And quickly, I don't know, I kind of thought they were noise. And then, you know, in the last year or so, I've been really studying traditional astrology very deeply, and, you know, really focusing on the seven visible planets. And in a way, I'm, I am glad that that was my trajectory. Because it's sort of starting with the basics, and starting with the planets that have been part of the tradition for 1000s of years, I think has been helpful for me in terms of conceptualizing how the asteroids are useful and what they mean. And you know, what they add, potentially to the tradition, I, I ended up I wasn't expecting to have my world rocked by learning more about the asteroids, but here I am.

Kyle Pierce  03:01

Yeah. Seems ease. Now I think it ends up being really helpful. I'm glad to be learning more about this, the asteroids now. Just, I feel like I'm able to really pull apart maybe what an asteroid like in my chart, or someone else's chart might be doing a little more, you know, knowing how to differentiate between, say, series and the moon. Right. But we'll, we'll get into that as we, we go along.

Tristan Paylor  03:37

I feel like I should say, you know, as a full disclaimer, for this episode, I am by no means an asteroid expert, I, you know, did a deep dive into researching them in the past week. And, you know, as, as many of us do, when we start researching things in astrology, we immediately reference them back to our own charts, or the charts of our loved ones and people we know well. So, you know, I'm not like, there are astrologers who have studied the asteroids for decades, and have experienced looking at them in hundreds upon hundreds of client charts. There are, you know, historians who know a ton about the mythology behind you know, the names of the asteroids, like the figures they represent. I am I am neither of those people. So, I think, you know, a lot of what I have to say, is going to be grounded in my personal experience. And, you know, the story of my sort of introduction to the asteroids in the past week, because I you know, I can't really speak from a place of authority on anything other than my personal experience.

Kyle Pierce  04:53

I mean, ultimately, that that ends up being what sells most people on anything astrology related, you know, they see something in their own chart. that really, really resonates. And it's true, you know, holy cow, I, you know, I got to know more about this. And it's basically been the last week of just really obsessively absorbing as much information as I can about about asteroids. Yeah, it's been intense. Yeah, maybe, you know, after we go over them a bit, talk about how, you know, we might individually use them in the future. I think they, you know, definitely deserve recognition. And, you know, they, they do something, they do stuff, I would say, but maybe treat them still differently than, you know, the traditional planets.

Tristan Paylor  05:41

That might be a good segue into just sort of talking broadly about what the asteroids are, you know, what differentiates them from the traditional planets and other bodies in the solar system? And yeah, I think you had a good sort of overview, Kyle, that you were describing to me.

Kyle Pierce  05:59

Yeah. Um, so to define asteroids. Asteroids from an astrological standpoint include planetary bodies in the solar system, some of which can astronomically be categorized as asteroids, but also larger objects that different times were categorized as planets, minor planets, and planetoids. Usually, when people refer to asteroids and astrology, they're referring to basically all the planetary bodies that are not one of the seven traditional planets Sun, Moon, Mercury, Mars, Venus, Jupiter, Saturn, or one of the three outer planets, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto. Objects like Chiron or series, or Vesta palace, and Juno, for example. Era eras seems to also get kind of lumped in with the asteroids. But it's technically you know, kind of categorized as a minor planet similar to Pluto. And kind of part of a group of trans Neptunian minor planets. It's there's like a bunch of them that they're discovering all the time. You also get different categories among the asteroids in astrology, like Chiron, for example, is part of the family of planetary bodies called sentarse, comprising a group of asteroids, and planetoids that inhabit the region of the solar system beyond the orbit of Saturn. Is it between Saturn and Neptune? Am I

Tristan Paylor  07:34

there wild? I mean, the they're very appropriately named and categorized. The astronomers who are working on these things, we're definitely thinking symbolically when they named them. The center's are asteroids that have unstable orbits that cross the orbits of one or more of the larger planets, typically between Saturn and Pluto.

Kyle Pierce  08:04

Yeah. You really did most of the research on on the center's defer to you on that.

Tristan Paylor  08:15

Wikipedia was

Kyle Pierce  08:17

Wikipedia is everybody's around.

Tristan Paylor  08:20

Donate to wake up eat. Yeah, actually good.

Kyle Pierce  08:22

Um, Mercury remediation, by the way, for anybody interested in donating to Wikipedia? Yeah, I do so regularly.

Tristan Paylor  08:32

The center's have characteristics of both asteroids and comments. And the mythological centers are both horse and human. Interesting. There's, yeah, there's a lot of symbolic resonance there. Yeah, and there are it's estimated that there are between 44,000 and more than 10 million centers in our solar system. So there is a crowd there is a rowdy crowd of celestial bodies hanging out around and past Saturn. Watch out.

Kyle Pierce  09:07

Yeah, I there's so much information floating around in my brain but um, you know, if I say something inaccurate begging of Pardons, but I remember reading something about there being you know, was it in counting like, over 100,000 minor planets in the solar system are things that you could you could classify as minor planets. But, you know, the center's kind of represent one main body, or one main category of asteroids. And then there are those that inhabit the region of space between Mars and Jupiter, otherwise known as the asteroid belt. And these include asteroids like Ceres, Juno Vesta, Palace Igea, just to name a few more prominent ones. But there are 1000s of these bodies, and more are discovered being discovered all the time.

Tristan Paylor  10:07

And the just to give listeners an idea of sort of the timeframe. The first few asteroids that were discovered in the asteroid belts were discovered in the early 1800s. Series was the first, she was discovered in January of 1801. And then the center's you know, being farther away are a more recent discovery, I think.

Kyle Pierce  10:34

1970s. Right.

Tristan Paylor  10:36

Well, the very first one was discovered in 1920. But the making, the Wikipedia article describes it as they were not recognized as a distinct population until the discovery of Chiron in 1977. So I'm going to infer from that that that's about when the center's became sort of a collective category of celestial objects. And then, you know, you have like the, the ones that get used a lot in astrology. Were, I think, discovered, from the 1970s on Chiron was in 77, and Phyllis and necess, were in the early 90s and Chariklo, that Chariklo is the wife of Chiron. And she's come up on my radar more and more in the last couple of years, as a body that is used by astrologers, and she was discovered in 1990 97. So they're, they're a little more recent there. They just come up on our radar, you know, in very recent history.

Kyle Pierce  11:41

Yeah. Well, that sounds like a good maybe segue into just talking a little bit about kind of the history of how asteroids and started getting incorporated into astrology.

Tristan Paylor  11:53

Yeah, that sounds great.

Kyle Pierce  11:56

Well, I know that Dimitra George was not necessarily the first to use asteroids in astrology, but she is really credited. I think, kind of primarily responsible for introducing and kind of popularizing the use of asteroids in modern astrology. She began work on them in the late 1960s, or 1970s. Eventually publishing a very popular book on them in the 1980s, called asteroid goddesses. And her interpretation of the asteroids, emphasized the mythology of the goddesses after which they were named, and presented them as representing a sort of counterbalance to the predominance of patriarchal archetypes in traditional astrology, as their discovery, loosening to coincide with kind of increasing awareness and prominence of women and women's issues in public life and society. And one thing I find very interesting about Dimitra George's chard is She's a Leo rising, and she has Venus in Virgo ruling her 10th house, you think that Virgo often has to do with an A focusing on smaller things like, you know, asteroids as compared to planets, and Venus being, you know, very inclusive, sort of harmonizing planet in fact that, you know, her career kind of claim to fame is really finding a place even advocating for incorporating these otherwise minor bodies. And actually, you know, initially she was met with like, a lot of, you know, a lot of mainstream astrologers in the 70s just kind of scoffed at her like, Oh, we don't need this, these these, you know, little floating balls of, of ice and rock, you know, gunking up our, our perfect astrology,

Tristan Paylor  13:54

they refer to them as like gravel or something like that. She does. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce  13:58

yeah. She's like gravel, floating balls of gravel. Yeah,

Tristan Paylor  14:00

she's a guest on an episode of the astrology podcast. And she talks about the asteroids and like her, how she became interested in it and the reception she received from the astrology community. And I couldn't help smiling when I was listening to her talk about it, because, you know, she was kind of talking about having to work from a grassroots level. Because the people who, you know, had the positions of authority in the astrology world, we're not interested in hearing about the asteroids, and we're very dismissive of them. But, you know, people that she was doing client work with, were actually really interested in them. And really resonating with their stories, I think in part because, you know, there there aren't a lot of goddesses among the planets that astrologers were using at the time. So was sort of popularizing them from that grassroots place. And I kind of like that, you know, as someone who's got a little bit of an anti establishment streak.

Kyle Pierce  15:10

Yeah. And I think that's a good um, you know, for anybody out there that has, you know, maybe a planet that you traditionally called, you know, in its fall or in its detriment, you know, ruling in important house. It's a lot of ways that that can work out. very favorably, I mean, she's one of the big one of the best known astrologers and the astrology community. Definitely is going to have a legacy that is gonna, gonna endure, I would assume.

Tristan Paylor  15:42

Yeah, definitely. But this, this is now a pro Venus and Virgo podcast. Now like Venus in Virgo. I do love the planets and fall or detriment in the 10th house or in the first house and being, you know, kind of movers and shakers who forced the establishment to kind of change who criticize the establishment or just like, yeah, and even like, from a Venusian level, it's not like she was criticizing the establishment necessarily. But just like her work, actually relating to people did end up shaking up the establishment and kind of forcing them to wake up and reassess their position on things.

Kyle Pierce  16:23

Like, oh, yeah, this is what people want to hear now. And it's what they want to see. There's what they're asking about in their charts. We better read Dimitris book and learn about this. And

Tristan Paylor  16:36

that's like, I mean, this is something you know, now that I'm walking down the path of being a professional astrologer, there's often a difference between what you know, professional astrologers in the astrology community are really focused on and what clients who are seeking readings from professional astrologers are focused on. And the asteroids are really popular among people who are consumers of astrology readings. And I think, you know, it's important to take that seriously. Like, there's a reason that people want to see certain things, there's a resonance there, and I don't think that we should ignore what resonates with people kind of defeats the whole purpose of doing astrology.

Kyle Pierce  17:20

I absolutely agree.

Tristan Paylor  17:23

On that note, I think it is important to still sort of distinguish what role it is that asteroids play and what is it that differentiates them from the planets? I don't know if you have some thoughts on that.

Kyle Pierce  17:42

Yeah. Well, um, this is related. I do want to talk just a little bit about the concept of diamond. So Dimitra frame the asteroids within the ancient Greek cosmology, that astrology is based on as diamond. And diamond has a meaning akin to spirit in English, but was also used to kind of refer to the gods, but rather than maybe the personhood or personality of a given God, which might be called Theo's diamond was often used to describe the action or activity of the gods. And you kind of get a sense of this, when you look at the significations of the houses of the 12 houses with the bottom hemisphere, you get the house of good fortune, you get the house of bad fortune. And the bottom hemisphere houses are more embodied, they deal with topics that are more embodied having to do with physical or tangible experiences in general, with the upper hemisphere, you know, houses, eight through 12, dealing more with kind of activity, more abstract conceptual houses, the house of good spirit, the house of a bad spirit. And then die die man would also describe sort of semi divine beings that would act sort of go betweens between the gods and sort of plain of human experience. Like think of them as sort of, like lieutenants, you know, like the planets, the planetary gods give the orders and, you know, they might give like a general decree, but it's kind of up to the lieutenant's to decide on how its carried out. And I think you can really see that play out for people in charts when you're kind of looking at their their asteroid placements.

Tristan Paylor  19:52

And I think, I think as I you know, my my beginner crowd course on the asteroids this past week has been reading asteroid goddesses by Dimitra. George and she talks about, like a planetary matrix at points in the book where, you know, like the moon sort of acts as a as a matrix or like an umbrella concept and then an asteroid like series exists under that umbrella as sort of a more specific expression of the lunar archetype.

Kyle Pierce  20:31

Yeah, definitely. That's very concise and succinct way was trying to say, thank you for that.

Tristan Paylor  20:40

You're welcome. Now, I think is it's useful because you know, one of the, once you start adding objects into astrology, you potentially run into redundancy, which, you know, is something like I've one of the reasons I've been really kind of focusing on learning astrology, and practicing Astrology with just the seven traditional planets is that you know, the meaning that's given to the outer planets. A lot of those significations were significations that already belonged in the tradition to the seven traditional planets like Pluto takes a lot of its significations from Mars, for example. So, when you're dealing with just like a large number of bodies, there is that question of, you know, what do they stand for, that isn't just repeating something that's already part of the tradition are already covered by the seven traditional planets, but I think there is a way in which the asteroids are like, more specific manifestations of those broader archetypes. And you know, they they stand for specific stories. You know, like, Cirrus, has a very clear narrative that the moon doesn't necessarily have, because the moon is such a broad archetype. But then you look at the story of Demeter, who's the Greek equivalent of Ceres, and where, you know, the asteroid gets a lot of its meaning from, and that's like a very specific story and roll that's sort of like in the lunar sphere. But you can, like, identify that narrative. A little more exactly in a chart when you look at that asteroid. Hopefully, I'm making sense.

Kyle Pierce  22:33

No, absolutely. Yeah, I think that was really one of the things that confused me about the asteroids, kind of looking at them early on, is like, Oh, well, Juno, it's the Juno was the goddess of of marriage. Right? Well, isn't that Venus? You know, what is that? What makes that different from Venus? And I think what has maybe helped me understand what they're doing is, is, like you said, they're, like extensions of, or more specific permutations of, of that theme. You know, I don't think that Juno was like stealing significations from Venus. And say that, you know, Juno is like another place to look for themes around marriage, but it also has, you know, more very specific themes around not just marriage but

Tristan Paylor  23:28

like a specific experience of marriage and a specific experience and relationship you know, there's a certain partner Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Pierce  23:38

Have you know, that are primarily primarily derived from the, the archetype the goddess in question the mythology around it, which is another maybe important distinguish, distinguishing point about the asteroids is that the traditional planets while a lot of the significations line up with mythology of God that it was named after. We don't really rely as much on on mythology to kind of pull the significations for the traditional planets. They're much broader archetypes.

Tristan Paylor  24:19

And I'm just thinking, you know, the, the planets play these really sort of clear roles where, you know, like, Saturn and Mars negate things Jupiter and Venus affirm things and regardless of their mythology, you know, they play a certain they have to do a certain job within the system. And, you know, the asteroids are not sort of tasked with the responsibilities that the traditional planets are. They just kind of stand alone as stories. And, you know, I think like when you're looking at the traditional planets in a chart, you know, you're sort of looking at like Say, a planet is ruling a certain house. And that says something about how the topics of that house might go in somebody's life. And a planet like Jupiter or Saturn having an influence on that planet is going to really significantly change how that planet like, does its job like say, you know, a planet rules your seventh house, it's in charge of your relationships, and it's being opposed by Saturn. And so it has to kind of work against that energy in order to give you relationships. Yeah, whereas the asteroids, you know, when you're working with them, it's more about telling the story like this is the story of Ceres. Does that story resonate with your own life story in a meaningful way?

Kyle Pierce  25:49

Yeah, yeah, I would say, especially given that, you know, at least as far as I can tell, and the way that the asteroids are used, you know, they, they don't rule houses like the planets do. So they're not creating scenes as much. They're not defining, you know, the environment, setting the stage, but they're kind of like actors, in the sense of operating within, within a paradigm, you know,

Tristan Paylor  26:19

yeah. Yeah, they don't have that. That responsibility. You know, they're kinda like, they're not in charge of anything. Yeah, but they're just like, involved.

Kyle Pierce  26:36

Yeah, but I mean, the also, in some ways, they show up almost more visibly. In a sense, because they, they, you know, if you have, say, Saturn in your 10th house, in a night chart, you know, you might have you may, you may meet a lot of obstacles or run into really strict authority figures in, you know, your, your work in public career life. Right. But, you know, Saturn is conjunct, say, really, any one of these asteroids, you know, they might, it might take on, you might run into a lot of like, powerful female figures, you know, or, you know, Saturn might be delivering it significations, sort of through the themes of that asteroid. That makes sense.

Tristan Paylor  27:26

I actually really like that. Yeah, I think that totally makes sense. Where, you know, the, the Saturn that you meet in your 10th house is a slightly different face of Saturn, if there's an asteroid right there, where, you know, Saturn sort of broadly represents maybe authority figures. And if Saturn is conjunct an asteroid, like say, Pallas, who you know, as a warrior goddess, those authority figures might be, you know, strategists or powerful women or whatever the case may be, there's still going to be Saturnian. But it's Saturn expressing itself through a more specific archetype.

Kyle Pierce  28:07

Yeah, and you know, this, as far as I can tell, at this point, you know, further research may reveal a different story, but I don't know if like series can like bonsai a planet or maltreat a planet? You know, I don't know if you can really strictly call any of them benefics or malefics, or anything like that. I don't know if they have those kinds of powers. This as far as I can tell,

Tristan Paylor  28:33

should we maybe introduce, you know, listeners to the Goddesses in the center's at least, you know, the ones that get used most often, since we've been talking a little bit about them might be good to give them a formal introduction.

Kyle Pierce  28:49

Yeah, absolutely. For most of my research purposes, just because there are 1000s of asteroids, I focus a lot of my research on the Big Four to me, Drew would call the Big Four. And that would be series Palace, Pallas, Athena, Vesta, and Juno

Tristan Paylor  29:13

which they so I also maybe introduced the Centaurus just briefly. Yeah. We're going to we've focused our research on the four goddess asteroids. But I do want to mention some of the Centaurus just briefly just to give you because they they are used with some frequency Chiron in particular. Chiron is automatically placed in a chart if you cast a chart on astro.com. So most people who get into astrology are familiar with Chiron so he probably doesn't need much of an introduction, but he is the wounded healer archetype. I won't give you know a whole overview of his mythology But, you know, he's, he's unusual. Among the centers in that the centers in Greek mythology are generally a very rowdy bunch of creatures. They're sort of feral and they don't really care about you know, morals or the laws of society. They sort of represent the wilderness and Chiron is actually he has some divine parentage. And he's, he's not just sort of animalistic, like the other centers. He's actually like a teacher and a healer. So he has kind of a significant position among the centers. And then another sort of similar Centaurus full list, who does come up in discussions of centers and astrology sometimes full us was also considered to be a little bit more civilized than the other centers, but he was not immortal. And then Chariklo was the wife of Chiron. In some accounts in Greek mythology, she is the daughter of Apollo. Unfortunately, I couldn't really find much about her that wasn't explicitly about her connections to men. Basically, all of the information I could find on Chariklo was about how she was related to Manuel. She's the wave of Chiron. She's the nurse of a number of Greek heroes. We're getting at Kelly's and, and her name, the one thing I could find out about her that didn't have to do with her relationships with men was the meaning of her name, which is graceful spinner. And then we have a lot of centers that are not such nice people. Chiron fullest and Chariklo are, you know, generally nice people. Then there's Nessus, who tried to have his way with the wife of Herrick Lee's and Heroclix killed him and then his own the poisoned blood of necess eventually killed Herrick, please. So, not a very pleasant story. And ACCION is another Centaur that sometimes shows up in astrology, who he's I don't know that he's strictly a centaur mythologically speaking, astronomically speaking. That's the category he's in. mythologically speaking. He's actually the ancestor of all the centers and how he ended up as the ancestor to all the centers is also not a very nice story. So just he's not a nice guy a

Kyle Pierce  32:35

lot of very not nice in Greek mythology.

Tristan Paylor  32:39

There Yeah, yeah, there. They're not very pleasant. ACCION story is not very pleasant. So you know, if you look that app content warning for that one, there's a lot of bloodshed and just generally immoral behavior going on.

Kyle Pierce  32:54

Yeah, I find just on that note, it's almost kind of nice is that there is usually like a family friendly, friendly, more family friendly version of a Greek story. And then there's like the really awful dark version that you know, maybe depending on your tastes, you can sort of choose your your own adventure on that to some degree.

Tristan Paylor  33:15

Definitely. So then, I guess you know, that brings us to the goddesses who you really want to dive into? Yeah. All right. We're starting with series, right?

Kyle Pierce  33:27

Yes, series was the first first asteroid discovered and actually was discovered in 1801, by Giuseppe Piazzi. If I'm not pronouncing that correctly, DISAPPEA. It was considered a planet. They classified it as a planet until about 1850 1850s or so when it was classified as an asteroid. And then I believe in 2006, the same time that Pluto was being demoted to a minor planet series got promoted to to a minor planet. Series is what is called a proto planet is basically a thief is like a planetary sort of Lego block. That never really got quite incorporated into a Lego set. Series is the only minor planet in the inner solar system. That's, you know, within the orbit of the asteroid belt. It's the largest object in the asteroid belt makes up about 25% of its mass, its orbit is 100. And since 1682 Earth days or about 4.6 Earth years, NASA actually consider series, one of the solar systems primary candidates for the existence of potential life due to the abundance of water. In fact, they estimate that about 50% of the mass of Ceres could be water. That is very flattering. Yeah, as well. Want to get all this science business? Established because it really does actually seem with a lot of the other asteroids is that some of their astronomy and kind of physical characteristics really show up in the mythology and kind of how they they seem to play out in charts. But also one of the, you know, physical, physical qualities of series, or perhaps the astronomical qualities of series, is it under very rare conditions? When series is at peak magnitude, if the sky on Earth happens to be dark enough, it is possible to see series with the naked eye if you have just perfect 2020 vision, but you can generally see series with just simple binoculars. And I think that's true for not sure about Juno, but

Tristan Paylor  35:54

it's definitely true for Vesta, because Vesta is very reflected, as does

Kyle Pierce  35:59

the brightest. Yeah. And I think that that visibility is something in my mind that maybe upgrades them maybe holds them gives them a little more significance than some of the other asteroids, or at least, you know, with my sort of cynical, bent, like, oh, well, maybe I'll take you seriously. Because, you know, I can see you or something.

Tristan Paylor  36:26

Yeah, what is what is biggest and most obvious, and, you know, what do we give the most attention to? And I think, I mean, this is not strictly related to series. But one thing that does really distinguish the asteroids from the seven traditional planets is visibility, and just the amount of time we've been observing them. And I think there's something symbolic there, too, like there's, you know, by the time we started discovering these asteroids, it's because technology had advanced enough to enable us to discover, you know, everything else going on in our solar neighborhood, you know, astrologers, in ancient Greece, or in medieval Europe, or, you know, wherever people were doing astrology, they didn't have access to a computer that would just like, plug in, where, you know, all of the the dwarf planets and asteroids were in a given chart, you know, they were calculating all this stuff by hand based on what they could actually like, observe. So this is kind of a new era for astrology in a way that, you know, the asteroids maybe symbolizes, you know, we, what we can see that whole issue of visibility, what is visible to us has expanded significantly. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce  37:56

yeah. But what do you think? Should I go to the mythology first or go over significations? First,

Tristan Paylor  38:04

let's let's dive into the mythology of series.

Kyle Pierce  38:08

Okay, so give a brief overview of the mythology of series. She was the goddess of fertility and agriculture, seen as the patron of farmers and common folk, somewhat unique among the Pantheon, for being just really actively involved in human affairs, as opposed to most of the gods who would kind of pick pet humans to take interest in or, you know, humans they wanted to have sex with, or kind of intervene when it served their agenda. When they wanted to prove something to another god or whatever. There's a lot of games you know, the gods like to play, but Ceres is kind of the one that just did what her job was just a sort of, she was really in charge of agriculture, at its essence, but in the Greek Roman era, people tended to worship the God that was most associated with their social status or profession. So serious may have been, perhaps the most widely worship because she was the goddess of the common farmer. plebeians, right? You also get the word serial from Sirius, some from series. Series was the mother of Persephone, maybe most notably in her story, who was kidnapped by Pluto. And there's kind of an interesting astronomical relationship with Jupiter. That sort of coincides because Pluto was sort of given the okay from Jupiter to kidnap series his sister's daughter to take his wife and astronomically. Scientists believe Jupiter's gravitational dominance of that region had something to do with why series never formed into a planet. So in the story, Persephone A series goes looking for Persephone, is it series? She goes she goes looking for Persephone, right. Does she go down into the underworld? Or how does that that come from that take place?

Tristan Paylor  40:12

series, I don't believe goes down into the underworld. She when she finds out what happened she essentially goes on strike. Yeah, that's when nothing on earth will grow. Yeah, because Ceres is the green goddess and you know, the goddess of nurturing and agriculture and food when she's grieving for her abducted daughter and nothing on earth will grow and everyone is hungry.

Kyle Pierce  40:42

Yeah, basically just winter, right.

Tristan Paylor  40:45

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Kyle Pierce  40:47

Yeah. And so kind of to appease series, because you know, and otherwise, she's been otherwise like benevolent God. But, you know, if you take your daughter away, she'll, she'll mess you up. Right? So the God's orchestrated a deal with Pluto, you know, like a Pluto. You need to give her Persephone back. But Pluto, was it the he fed, or that he gave he tricked Persephone into eating?

Tristan Paylor  41:17

A pomegranate,

Kyle Pierce  41:18

eating a pomegranate. And it's right in the underworld. And the rule was that if you ate something in Hades, then you couldn't leave. But they, you know, we're sort of going to get to work around. Basically you get a sort of a split custody agreement between Ceres and Pluto. In which Persephone spends I don't think it's 5050 I think it was.

Tristan Paylor  41:45

I think it I think it is, I think it's half the year after year after year. Persephone is in the underworld and half the year. Persephone is in the world of mortals. And I guess, maybe you know, the world of mortals. Persephone is not in the underworld and can be with her mother's series, and the series is happy and things grow on earth during the year, which is sort of a mythological, like the origin of the story of the seasons. Yeah. Yeah, there's this year, where we can't grow anything and everything has cooled, because the goddess of agriculture is grieving. Because she wants to be with her daughter.

Kyle Pierce  42:23

Yeah. So that kind of being the broad mythology, you can see where a lot of the significations of series come from. So you know, significations four series involve motherhood nurturing, they called series, The Great Mother, she's referred to often as the Great Mother, mother of the people. So you get themes of just motherhood, but also not just motherhood in the sort of traditionally mothering component of parenthood, but kind of playing the mother role to larger groups. And series is often associated with creating or seeking out more inclusive supportive communities. But you do get sort of darker themes with series to do with attachment in both positive and negative themes around attachment styles, and also grief and loss of children. But sort of the natural grief that I think all parents go through speaking as a parent, of just watching your your children grow up, and, you know, your role as their parent diminishes over time, and having to sort of let them go and be their own people, hopefully not marry, you know, the god of the underworld. But that seems to be a general theme that comes up. Something you have found with series as well.

Tristan Paylor  43:54

I mean, I'm, I'm not, I'm not a parent, and I'm really glad you brought that up, and that you have those perspective. Because, you know, that's not, it's not part of my personal experience. But that does make a lot of sense to me, you know, there's, at some stage, a child is probably going to move out, they're going to develop independence, and how, as a parent, you handle that, I think, is a topic that is relevant to series.

Kyle Pierce  44:25

One was a lot of the thinking around series for me over the past week or so. It's been around, you know, like, not everybody's apparent. You know, how can those themes play out or maybe show up for people in a much broader context? And I mean, you think about, you know, what that consciousness in mind of a parent and their child, you know, you know, that they're eventually going to grow up and leave you and all that. So you want to prepare them for the outside world. You want to nurture them and make them their own solid people find it interesting that series is the daughter of Saturn. So you get Saturn in Opus opes. Like some ancient guide about related to some ancient Earth God, I don't know, I'm not as well versed in the entire Pantheon is think you are interesting, but if you know anything about that

Tristan Paylor  45:24

I'm not. I'm not sure who exactly are referring to. Oh, oops.

Kyle Pierce  45:30

Yeah. Oh, Kiki, yes. Yeah.

Tristan Paylor  45:34

Yeah, it doesn't matter. It's

45:35

just the mother or that.

Tristan Paylor  45:38

I mean, that's, that tells you something right there, right. Like, how often we either haven't heard of the mother of a deity. Or, you know, what we do know of female deities, like, you know, when I was talking about Chariklo, it's like, the information I could find was just, she's defined by how she relates to men. Yeah, you know, there's no sort of like heroic story I could find about Chariklo. I think that does tell you something.

Kyle Pierce  46:08

If you think about that poem, like children of Saturn or idea of children of Saturn, like there is some a whirlwind challenge built in to series story. There's a very Saturnian consciousness sort of involved in series that, you know, yeah, yeah, there's the sort of inevitable end to a certain phase or cycle.

Tristan Paylor  46:33

Yeah, the theme of cycles of time. And within any cycle, there is a period of decline. And maybe even the symbols for Saturn, I mean, all of all of the asteroid goddesses we're discussing are connected to Saturn in some way. Series and Palace is the only one who isn't a child of Saturn of the four Palace is a child of Jupiter of Zeus. But all of the other three are actually children of Saturn and siblings of Zeus or Jupiter. Yeah. But Ceres is the one who actually has a glyph that looks very much like Saturn's glyph. Yeah, the glyph that's used for Yeah. Yeah, the glyph that's used for Saturn in in astrology looks like a sickle. And the glyph for series is like almost the same glyph but just flipped. So that the sickle, the blade of the sickle is facing up instead of down.

Kyle Pierce  47:36

Yeah. And so I mean, I think that is, that's a good like, sort of hint at the way. The other asteroids work is that you know, kind of on its face, it sounds like, Oh, sounds a lot like the moon. Typically, the moon is where you look for topics and themes related to parenting, how, you know, when it's nurtured, even one of the big super significations of series food, you find that the condition of the moon in a chart often does say a lot about food. But you can also see, you know, themes of Saturn involved in series and, you know, even other architects perhaps. And that is the thing to when you really like dig into astrology is you see the overlap in kind of all of them that there is overlap. The way that the planets all work together, create the sort of overlapping themes or themes that connect to each other, you know, like the moon and Saturn cancer opposes Capricorn. So there's kind of an inherent inbuilt relationship between the moon and Saturn. That yeah, we don't always like to see the moon, with Saturn, but the, you know, death and rebirth, the end of life, the beginning of life, you know, shifting of seasons, but series kind of holds that archetype or holds a representative representation of that sort of synthesis, you will,

Tristan Paylor  49:09

I think, something that I'm increasingly recognizing, and my own study and practice of astrology is that there's a ton of overlap, even between the seven traditional planets, and they don't fit as neatly into boxes as we would like them to what sort of gives them clear roles in traditional astrology is that they're given responsibilities, and what you're responsible for isn't necessarily an indication of your total character. So like Mercury and Jupiter are sort of opposite archetypes just as an example. But there's also a lot of overlap between those archetypes but what it comes down to is not sort of like who they are as people or who they are as characters. But what job they're sort of give And to do within the scheme sets them in that polarity. But if you were taking them just as characters in a drama, there is actually a ton of overlap between all of these figures. And so it makes sense that the asteroids are inevitably going to overlap quite a bit in terms of their symbolism, with the planets.

Kyle Pierce  50:21

Yeah. I mean, that's how and that's okay shows up in people's lives, too. You know, you know, there's no peer, Saturn's out there, there's no pure. Venus is out there. Like they're, they're all interacting, you know, people aren't archetypes.

Tristan Paylor  50:36

Yeah, yeah. And I think even even the planets themselves, you know, like, Saturn was sitting here with us, you know, he might just want to have a good time, like, maybe he wouldn't feel like being all serious and slow. Maybe he'd feel like, I don't know, going out and playing bumper cars or something. But he has a job. And when he's doing his job, he's not doing bumper cars.

Kyle Pierce  50:58

Yeah, well, that's one of the other kind of significations of series is the sort of duty behind taking care of, of not just a child, but a community or, you know, your friends, or, you know, whatever maybe area of Life series might be pointing to.

Tristan Paylor  51:22

It's making me think to, as you were mentioning, you know, the, the symbolism of series as parent and her connection to experiences of parenthood. But you know, as you were learning about series, you were thinking about the fact that not everybody is a parent, but everybody is a child, everybody has an experience of caregiving when they are children. And I think that experience might also be relevant to the placement of series in your chart, I think in in Dimitris book, she talks a lot about the connection between food and parenting and like your parents, how your parents, you know, some of us have experiences where parents sort of used food or deny food as sort of reward or punishment, or, you know, we learn certain things like, you're only going to get dessert if you finish your whole meal. And we sort of learned from our parents to ignore what our bodies are telling us in favor of social norms around food. So that I mean, that's also a lunar signification like food and caregiving, for sure, but it's interesting, like, how Ceres kind of highlights that specific dynamic of how food overlaps with parenting and how our experience of being fed and our parents attitude around food affects not only how we eat as adults, but a lot of other things about our behavior potentially, or how we feel about the world or about ourselves.

Kyle Pierce  52:59

Yeah, that's what you'll ran into a lot of strategies, talking about eating disorders, you know, with a corresponding with a certain series placements. But I just think I'm making me think about the, you know, in modern society, we can have the luxury of not having to be overly concerned with food. Sort of, you know, that hierarchy of needs, a layer of the hierarchy of needs is just sort of taken for granted. You know, we sort of have it under control, but there's so much symbolically throughout history, even today that goes with food, you know, having if you're going out on a date, you know, you often go out to dinner. Business meetings are often dinner meetings, you know, somebody's visiting your house, it's, there's sort of an implicit expectation to provide them with food, maybe not as much nowadays, but tradition traditionally. There's been a lot of a lot around that, but I don't find my go to is not to look for food, specifically, when I look at series, but you know, a funny example actually do have have a series placement that maybe relates to an episode I did on my other podcast. Killer cosmos is that it's may not belong on this podcast, but it's, you know, John Wayne Gacy was known for. He murdered a lot of young men. A lot of parents lost children to John Wayne Gacy. He also when he was in prison, the first time he was in prison for a brief stint before his kind of infamous murder spree, and he discovered a talent as a chef. He was like the prison's cook and everybody was like, Oh my God, you're amazing. Gacy and that was actually what he did for a living for a while after that. After getting out of prison, and he has series conjunct Mercury in pisces, like exactly conjunct Mercury in pisces, which, you know, if you listen to that episode, you can get a more comprehensive analysis of what's going on with mercury. But you know, you get both the food element of series with this placement but also the unfortunately the the kidnapping of of children which you know, don't freak out about your your series placement people.

Tristan Paylor  55:38

And I mean, that's that's the trouble right is often the most extreme examples serve as the clearest illustrations. But for the average person, that's not how series is going to look. Yeah, to offer a somewhat lighter example of series in a natal chart, my dog has serious conjunct his moon, also in Pisces. And I remember, my partner and I, learning about the different the, you know, the whole theory of love languages. And we decided just for fun to do. There's a website where you can like do a test to figure out what is your love language, and we were like, Let's do one for Kitsuke kits, who is the dog? So we did the love language test as if we were kids you responding to the questions and discover that his love language is definitely receiving gifts. But of course, if you're a dog, all of your gifts are food. And we know like, animals. Animals love us because we feed them. Yeah, I guess two toys would be one, but he's really about the food. And you know, it's not it's not unusual for animals to be all about food. But he is one of those dogs that's particularly food motivated, like, yeah, if if he thinks there's even a slight chance that there might be food, he does not want you to touch him. He does not want you to talk to him. He's like, what, show me the money. Like, I know there's peanut butter somewhere. Give me the peanut butter. Don't talk to me until it's in front of me. Yeah. So it's very, it's interesting, actually, because I had to. Sometimes there are funny ways that we project on to our pets. And there have been times where I've been like, you don't really love me, you're just using me for food. You know, because the way I experience love and nurturing is more through touch or being spoken to. And the way he experiences nurturing is through being fed, which is not as big of a thing for me. So I had to kind of, you know, take a step back and realize, like, his way of receiving love is through his stomach. And that's a totally valid way of feeling like loved and appreciated and safe and nurtured. And it's different from how I experience, love and feeling safe and nurtured. But that, you know, doesn't make his way any less valid or important. doesn't mean he's just using me for food. It's like there's a connection. I think with serious conjunct the moon and the moon being about how we feel safe. I think it's not just about him, you know, needing his appetite to be satisfied. It's that if people are feeding him, he knows that he's safe. He knows that we love him. That's an assurance that we love him. It's not just like a hedonistic thing. I think it's a very, very lunar drive in his case.

Kyle Pierce  58:42

Yeah. Well, it's, it's like a baby, right? It's funny, because it's funny, you even said the bit about like, would you even love me if, if I wasn't giving you food right now, you know, I remember having sort of thought, from time to time. More jokingly or ironically, with the, you know, my son when he was a baby, that so much of the bonding really though that goes on between you. And a baby is the the feeding process, you know, my happiest memories are, you know, waking up in the middle of the night to feed my son, you know, and sitting in a rocking chair. And those are like the moments that I want to I just want to think about them. I feel so much more connected to him. Something I have to do sometimes when you know, when you inevitably lose that connection from time to time, you know, which is just inevitable as a parent.

Tristan Paylor  59:47

And there's like, a broader sense to you in which you know, it's easy to feel like we live in an impersonal universe that does not care about us. I mean, it may very well be objectively true. But when we are being fed and nourished by the world, it makes us feel like we live in a universe that actually cares about us. Think in that broader sense, like series, as you know, the goddess of agriculture and the food that we get from the earth, there's a sense where, you know, when the earth is providing food for us, we feel like the world is safe. We feel like the world cares about us. So thank you to Kitsune for teaching that lesson. Because I think maybe it maybe it's part of what you were saying earlier, too, that, you know, both of us living in, in North America, when you know, being privileged in the ways that we are privileged food is something we can easily take for granted. And so I don't make the can I make the connection more between food and money than I do between food and love? And so that was like, you know, when I saw myself reacting to my sweet, innocent dog being like, Do you really love me? I had to be like, okay, come on. Like, he doesn't have any concept of of money or like material things. This is very much connected to to love and bonding for him. And maybe there's a bit of a disconnect between food and bonding for me, because, you know, I for one, take it for granted when for another associate it with just like, it's another bill. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce  1:01:31

Yeah, I almost find, ironically, that like, like food for me is ends up being something that I end up being really cheap. Sometimes, not all the time, but that I you know, I can be a little frivolous. With my spending in other ways. Maybe food is not the first place I look to feel nourished. Which maybe, you know, resonates a little bit with my personal placement with with series, the one that Tristan and I actually happen to share is a series in Pisces sleep pretty close to the midheaven. And when I think about that, I you know, think about like, what makes me feel nourished, or something what? Like, what do I feed off of, in a sense, like, it's like I meaning you know, when things when something gives, I can find meaning in something or find on the overuse the word spiritual. It's like, someone was like the Pisces go to word, but find something that resonates in my soul, if you will like that. It's like, oh, I want that. I want more of that. Give me all of that.

Tristan Paylor  1:02:52

Yeah, the Well, it's, it's interesting. So I have a series in Pisces on my midheaven like Kyle does. And I actually did work in food service for most of my adult life. I worked in food service from the age of 18, until I was in my late 20s. So you know, I spent, I spent over a decade working in food service. I didn't like it. So you know, and I see series on my midheaven. I'm not like, Oh, I'm happy about that. Particular. Yeah, like it's relevant. But I don't want it to be relevant like that, because that wasn't a fun time. Not saying that it can't be. You know, there are people who work in that field. We're having a great time, but it was not for me. But you know, that's, that's certainly a signification. But I think it's interesting. It's in the ninth house, both of us have the midheaven in the ninth house. And we're both astrologers. And there is a way in which astrology is a service of giving care and nurturing. But more in a watery sense. Like it's more about spiritual and emotional nurturing, as opposed to the physical tangible, you know, cooking someone a meal, I think, you know, series in, in Pisces, in the ninth house, might have more to do with, you know, helping somebody figure out their existential crisis or, you know, listening to them when they're having problems and just being, you know, a supportive, you know, sort of shoulder for them on an emotional level. Yeah. Helping someone, you know, sort out, you know, a spiritual crisis that they might be having that kind of thing. And I also I worked in the church for a long time, too.

Kyle Pierce  1:04:47

I mean, it wasn't for me, it did massage for a long time. 10 years. Just another way of taking care of people, right. Do you know when you think about it, seems kind of obvious to me now. Maybe I wouldn't have thought of when looking at series series before, you know, like, oh food, what, but that sort of community orientation or wanting to, you know, create a safe environment. What are Tristan and I doing right now we're creating podcasts that I think, in part is an expression or part of an effort to want to kind of create a safe and supportive community around astrology, you know, find other like minded people.

Tristan Paylor  1:05:41

And we both have Jupiter in the 11th house in our charts and series in Pisces is ruled by Jupiter. So she's in the ninth house, but she's being ruled by a planet that's in the 11th house. And there's that connection between spirituality and building community. And Sirius is about nurturing and providing care and support. So I think it all fits together nicely. I think something significant that really sold Kyle and I on the significance of the asteroids, at least, you know, series in particular, is that the way that Kyle and I met is he made a post on an astrology subreddit, asking if people wanted free readings, and within two minutes of him making that post, I just happened to be scrolling Reddit at the time, that within two minutes, I responded. And we have the chart for when he posted this, which is how we, you know, started corresponding in the first place. And at the time, he posted it series was in Pisces. And Kyle was having a series return. And series happened to be in the 11th house. So I had had my series return, you know, sort of exactly a little bit before that, but it was like, pretty much exactly on your series. Kyle, when you posted that. And I think inevitably, what happened is, we recorded a podcast episode entirely about the asteroids. So clearly series was like, you know, I need to get my name out there. So I'm gonna get these two astrologers together and convince them that they should spend, you know, half an hour discussing me on a podcast.

Kyle Pierce  1:07:31

Yeah, yeah, I, we're both having ninth house yours as well. So that sign was activated. Yeah, well, there were like other transits, you could point to is maybe being significant. I was like, the most exact and the most obvious. Just found that pretty interesting and convincing.

Tristan Paylor  1:07:53

Yeah, that was pretty uncanny. Yeah, and it's just, you know, both of us being in a year where the midheaven is activated. And both of us trying to start up an astrology career. It's just it's very funny. It's, it does feel very faded when you see that in a chart. Yeah, there's, I'm also looking at the chart for the discovery of series, which is really fun. Nice. Interestingly, both Jupiter and Saturn are in the first house in the chart of series is discovery. Jupiter, of course, being a brother to series and Saturn being the father of series. So it's kind of cool that both of those planets are quite prominent, they're in the first house and Leo series herself is actually conjunct the midheaven in her own discovery chart. In the sign of Taurus, which seems like a very appropriate series sign, this series having so much lunar symbolism, it's kind of fitting that, you know, she would be in the sign of the Moon's exaltation, when she decided to show up on our radar for the first time. And Pluto is also in the eighth house in the chart of series is discovery. Which I think is kind of interesting given that there is, you know, the significant part of series mythology has to do with the underworld and Pluto is kind of the main adversary in series is most well known mythological tale. And you know, he's right there in in the eighth house, which is about the underworld.

Kyle Pierce  1:09:38

Yeah. Is there an aspect with series at

Tristan Paylor  1:09:42

all? Pluto is overcoming series via a sextile so not a bad aspect. Pluto in serious discovery chart is in Pisces in the eighth house and the end of the series is in Taurus and the 10th Yeah, so you know It's it's not a tense relationship necessarily, although Pluto does hold some power in it. Yeah. And Sirius was actually also retrograde during her discovery.

Kyle Pierce  1:10:10

It's, you know, interesting. Unless there's like other significations, we want to talk about, I have just a couple of like, my weird kooky a tinfoil hat ideas maybe about about series.

Tristan Paylor  1:10:22

Those are my favorite ideas, please share?

Kyle Pierce  1:10:25

Well, I would be interested to study the relationship between Pluto and Ceres in maybe charts, that the charts of people who may be live those those themes out, you know, very visibly, and be nice to sort of think of, you know, the degree to which Pluto can be considered malefic, right. It's not everybody's favorite planet. I wouldn't strictly call them alethic. But, you know, to whatever degree you could describe Buddha that way, I'd like to think of of series as like a benefic. Maybe. It's, I mean, obviously, it's, it's hard to. Alright, does feel like a lot of the new bodies that we're bringing in don't they're not happy bodies, they're not happy. They're not bringing in happy topics, you know, we could use a little more use of morbid ethics and astrology. But um, yeah, I don't know that the fact that series got kind of promoted as Pluto was being demoted, and that they are actually very similar size. That series kind of has this special status, you know, in the asteroid belt, and Pluto gets the sort of special status in the Kuiper Belt is sort of bodies of significance, you know?

Tristan Paylor  1:11:59

Yeah, almost now, I almost don't ever want to look at either one in a chart without the other. Yeah. And I

Kyle Pierce  1:12:06

think that series of all of them, I think, if there was gonna be a takeaway, that just from an astrological or astronomical perspective, like it warrants bringing in to at least be considered an equal weight to Pluto. I don't think it's been studied is as thoroughly as Pluto. And weirdly hasn't been taken as seriously as Pluto, even though we discovered series was over 100 years before Pluto.

Tristan Paylor  1:12:32

I have Pluto is very recent. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce  1:12:34

we were like all over Pluto.

Tristan Paylor  1:12:37

When we discovered it. And it's interesting because series was I mean, I think it probably has to do with a climate around astrology. I don't think in the early 1800s That there was much of industry like astrology kind of fell out of favor between the Renaissance. Yeah. And like Victorian Age. Yeah, like that. It really started picking up again, I guess in like the 1930s. So I wonder if you know, the discovery of Sirius just kind of fell in that fallow period for astrology? I'd need to look into that more to verify that that's the case. But I wonder if that's what's going on there. Because Sirius was declared a planet I believe when she was first discovered.

Kyle Pierce  1:13:23

Yeah, but you know, what makes sense is that it was in the 1850s that Sirius was demoted to an asteroid. And even though they're very similar bodies, I think Pluto has a lot more mass overall. But during that period, from the 1850s, to 2006, was considered an asteroid. I mean, it was only really in like the 1960s or so that people sort of going to using the asteroids and astrology, maybe just kind of by virtue of its designation, label, like it didn't get treated the same way as Pluto.

Tristan Paylor  1:13:59

Yeah. And it's hard not to see the symbolism that Dimitra George was really trying to make the astrology community aware of by talking about the asteroids, that there's, you know, when when things become culturally relevant, or become popular, there's, that's a sign that something is in the sort of popular consciousness that's important to look at. And, you know, when you have these goddess figures, starting to become important in astrology, you know, we're in the business of reading signs, and that is possibly a sign of, you know, those topics really entering the public consciousness in a meaningful way. So, it's almost like, you know, the, the topics of pious it's this very, there's a lot of gender stuff with the asteroids, too. Because, you know, men illness as the default. The fact that the asteroids are goddesses, kind of makes them sort of unique, because they stand in contrast to the default, you know, the, the maleness of the traditional planets isn't, you know, like as prominent a part of their symbolism, but the gender of the asteroids is discussed a lot as being relevant to their symbolism and sort of, you know, the, the asteroids becoming important, during, you know, women's liberation. And now, you know, we've had like Pluto demoted and series promoted, you know, in astronomical terms, and, you know, public awareness around issues of gender is, you know, changing and evolving, and, you know, non binary people are becoming more and more visible. Like, yeah, I guess there's just, it's interesting that that astronomically did seem to coincide with a change of priorities or change of visibility, I guess, is the best way to put it. In our culture, where, you know, series had been kind of ignored, you know, because she's the incorrect gender and was just around at the incorrect time, is now becoming more and more relevant, and Pluto is becoming potentially a bit less relevant as the sort of patriarchal God

Kyle Pierce  1:16:27

that is actually get way out there. Are we into the weeds, but, you know, the 1920s, that was a time that was really kind of when the Women's Liberation Movement was picking up, like, yeah, women's suffrage, but also kind of faced, like a bit of a backlash to I do find it interesting that the asteroids, I mean, they were always there, but they sort of showed up, or we started paying more attention to them, maybe when we needed sort of different bodies to project specific ideas or themes on to, you know, like about parenthood, you know, which sort of fell under the moon broadly. But maybe as collectively as a society, we needed to explore other themes around that more specific themes, kind of separately, but meaning, and that could get into a whole nother world of discussion. Like, why does astrology work? Anybody wants to ask that one? You know?

Tristan Paylor  1:17:32

Yeah, please, please ask a question with fun find out episode. Yeah, that would be another special episode where we only focus on that topic, I think.

Kyle Pierce  1:17:44

Yeah, that Yeah.

Tristan Paylor  1:17:47

All right. So we have we have Juno up next. Juno was the third asteroid to be discovered. She is named for the the highest goddess in the Roman Pantheon, and the wife of Jupiter. So the equivalent of Hera in Greek mythology, the wife of Zeus, there isn't as much sort of fun astronomical stuff I discovered about Juno compared to what Kyle dug up about series. Although One fun fact about Juno is that she is very reflective. So even though Juno is not the largest of the asteroids, she was discovered before a number of the larger ones because of this reflective property.

Kyle Pierce  1:18:42

It's interesting, it makes sense with being a planet about relationships and companionship, being very reflective.

Tristan Paylor  1:18:49

Yeah, that actually does really fit, doesn't it? I shouldn't I shouldn't underestimate the symbolism of these little astronomical details.

Kyle Pierce  1:18:59

Yeah, they all have little, little things that are like, Oh, does that make sense?

Tristan Paylor  1:19:02

Yeah, it does fit. Do you know? I mean, it's probably more I'm more familiar with, you know, the Greek mythology with the mythology of Hera. I don't have any, you know, particular stories memorized to tell but a predominant theme in Harrah's myths is her relationship with Zeus, and how rocky that relationship is. And yet, she remains very committed and loyal to the relationship. I mean, Zeus is notoriously bad at monogamy. And Hera, you know, remains faithful and actually turns away potential suitors quite consistently, which does, I think, with Juno and Juno's signal vacations having to do with marriage and relationship? There is that question of what makes Juno different from Venus, which represents marriage and relationship. And I think maybe one of the key significations that distinguishes Juno or makes Juno a little bit more specific is that quality of loyalty and fidelity. Yeah, devotion. Venus indicates relationships and marriage but doesn't necessarily indicate. Like where Venus is placed in your chart might say something about your relationship values or probably, yeah, or what your marriage is like, whereas the story of Juno is very specific, like Venus could be potentially about any type of relationship or any type of marriage.

Kyle Pierce  1:20:49

I believe Aphrodite had many lovers, right? Yeah,

Tristan Paylor  1:20:52

Aphrodite was not faithful to her husband. And it's there. There's a bit of a contrast between Aphrodite and Hera when it comes to relationships where Aphrodite I don't think wanted to be married, and was not happy with her husband. And had numerous affairs whereas Hera was like, ride or die. You know, yeah, I am committed to this, I, you know, I'm not going to fool around with other people. So that is sort of like a distinctive, like, subcategory of relationships that I think Juno's specifically represents. And so, you know, in a birth chart, I think Juno potentially points to the issues around loyalty and relationships and what we're willing to put up with in our relationships. Like where is the boundary? Are we willing to put up with too much in order to remain like loyal to our partners? And the Gina was one where neither of us found as much sort of stuff going on in our own charts of the charts of people we knew where we were like, Oh, that really stands out as like a Juno situation. I don't know maybe you've maybe you've discovered something since we last spoke Pyle about Juno and a chart that stood out to you.

Kyle Pierce  1:22:19

I think but yeah, do you know? What's most something I want listeners to bear in mind is that for all my astrological genius, I haven't had a lot of time to sit with with all these with these these archetypes right. So I kind of want to you know, qualify my these are kind of hot takes or you know, not you know, fully cooked thoughts about about Juno but kind of relating to the idea that the asteroid sort of bringing some some focus on two topics that are generally fall under the umbrella of of other planets, like Juno maybe with Venus and marriage, and sort of drawing attention to sort of the other side of that, or sort of the maybe directing it towards on backup a little. So think of Hera right? In the ship that she had to put up with being married to Zeus, who is out sexing up the world, right? And it's actually there's a really good show on Netflix called Blood of Zeus, an anime I keep meaning to watch that. It's really good. Yeah, you should totally watch it. And I mean, hair is not depicted very, very kindly. She's not very nice in the show, but you know, just thinking about, like, traditionally, what was expected of women in marriage, you know, to put up with your husband's shit and be happy about it, because that is, you know, marriage is like, that's your goal. That's what you want. You want to be a good wife and get a good marriage. I feel like Juno's sort of points out the qualities that go into devotion and commitment. And what goes into marriages in long term partnerships in general, which is a certain degree of putting up with with people you should I mean, you can't have a relationship without you know, that I know that are qualities about me that you know, might get under people that I love skin sometimes but they love me so you know, they, they they don't pay too much attention to it or they they brush over it or you know, we get in spats about it every now and then like that. That's part of of you being committed to Somebody is accepting them for their their flaws, their shortcomings. But I'm kind of with the Goddesses sort of highlighting more of a feminine perspective on things. Sort of. I don't know exactly when tuna was discovered, but I Do you think about women's liberation? And like? Do you ever watch Mad Men? How they did not watch me, man? Oh, yes,

Tristan Paylor  1:25:08

I do know that they dig into issues of gender in that particular world a lot in the show, but I've never watched it.

Kyle Pierce  1:25:16

Yeah, there's a lot of, you know, successful hotshot men like going out and just sleeping with whoever they could, while their wives, you know, stayed at home and did all the cooking and cleaning and put up with it. And eventually, a lot of them didn't, you know, and I think that those are topics that became really relevant and made, you know, I think women in general, started to be able to get into a position where they could make demands of husbands to, to degree that where it's just kind of accepted, more now, worrying that right, but I don't think most people when they get married now expect to have their wives you know, stay home and be barefoot and pregnant, and, you know, let them frolic around and do whatever they want, you know, there's more of a reciprocity, mutual expectation, and I believe that is one of the things that you know, was supposed to signify is an emphasis on equal partnership.

Tristan Paylor  1:26:22

Yeah, definitely.

Kyle Pierce  1:26:25

I know, for me, I have Juno opposing my moon bear very tightly. And I would say that is the element of judo that I can identify with, you know, it's an opposition, which maybe means some sort of conflict there. But it's actually something that I've always sought out, like, almost to my detriment in some cases where like, I needed things to be so equal, that was sort of uncomfortable with any sort of imbalance. Maybe go too far in trying to correct it or something. Or you have Juno conjunct your Jupiter in your 11th? House? Right, Tristan?

Tristan Paylor  1:27:07

Yeah, which is, I mean, I feel like that should be it's interesting, because Juno and Jupiter are the married couple. And they're within two degrees of each other in my chart. So they're actually together in my chart. Yeah. And, like, wildly opposing my moon, like they're pretty far apart. But there is a sign based opposition going on there. I don't know. I'm just thinking about my own attitude. There's this sense to, in I mean, it's, it's hard, especially as you know, a modern reader, not to look at the stories of Zeus and Hera and just feel like this is a very dark archetype, because it says so much about the subjugation of women in the institution of marriage. Another another sort of aspects of the Juno archetype is jealousy. And there's a way in in the mythology in the stories of Zeus and Harrah's marriage, Hera didn't really have any power. And the only power she did have was to attack the women that Zeus became involved with. And so there are a lot of stories of hair getting sort of pissed off at zoo says various consorts and giving them trouble. Because of, you know, what was considered to be her jealousy, I think there's an interesting reflection in that of how women's needs in relationships have been characterized as an inconvenience to men, you know, and that's, I mean, there's any stories too, I mean, it's also hard for me trying to find myself in the stories is also hard for me as a queer person, because they are very heteronormative. But I think you know, even beyond the issue of like, relationships between women and men, these stories tell us something about power dynamics in relationships in general, obviously, the dynamics between women and men who look a certain way but you know, that's not the those are not the only two sort of categories of human in which that power imbalance shows itself there is a power imbalance in certain relationships where you know, some people's needs are taken seriously, and some people's needs are seen as an inconvenience and when people whose needs are seen as an inconvenience to the dominant group, try To get those needs met, there are not usually like straightforward avenues for them to get those needs met, they can't just declare I have these needs, like I need to be fulfilled in my marriage as much as you do. And it's your job to meet those needs. So you're kind of left with no other choice. It's like, you know, Hera is not Harrah's not jealous. You know, it's one of those. There's a way in which, you know, we invalidate the needs and emotions of people that we treat like crap so that we can continue justifying how we treat them. And I think this is one of those cases where, you know, what gets labeled as jealousy is actually like a cry for help and communication. Yeah, it's a it's really convenient, you know, when we're treating somebody like crap, and they've finally had enough, and, you know, the situate there's such a power imbalance that the only way they can communicate is, you know, through like in the stories of Zeus and Hera, Hera, accosts Zeus as lovers, there's, there's no other avenue, she has to communicate with zoos that like this is not okay. And, you know, and instead of going, you know, I need to look at my own behavior, it's really easy to just say, well, that's her problem. And she's just being jealous. And she's just being, you know, crazy, which is another, you know, word, another very problematic word that gets leveled at people in relationships all the time when they're just like trying to communicate their needs, and it's inconvenient to their partners. So oh, they're just, they're just crazy, like they're irrational their emotions are getting the better of them.

Kyle Pierce  1:31:47

Yeah, I always seen that as one of the like, big. The key components of male privilege is that kind of privilege to be dismissive of the, you know, the peculiar the curiosities and the particularities of women's issues, you know, it there isn't a bit of that diminutive, like, quality to it. I mean, obviously, it gets very complicated, but I think that those are like, really excellent points. And I think, you know, you kind of see with with Hera, even in that dynamic, the power gap and power dynamic in that relationship is so deep set that yeah, here is only you can't really confront Zeus directly. And so, you know, she has to go kind of alternative directions or builds up and, and she gets hysterical, right.

Tristan Paylor  1:32:43

Yeah, another another good keyword, and

Kyle Pierce  1:32:45

Zeus is able to discredit and dismiss para, as you know, yeah, that crazy jealous goddess Hera.

Tristan Paylor  1:32:55

So I wonder if you know, in a chart, Juno can point to a desire for equality and relationships, like you were, you know, saying with your own example, and perhaps point to, you know, how our experience is how we experience power within relationships. And I think, you know, the sort of emergence of Juno as an asteroid that deserves a place in astrology is, you know, perhaps a sign that we're starting to question. Traditional relationships is, you know, like, Hera is sort of the the model monogamous, and it's like, is monogamy working? And if it's not working, but it's still a valuable way of structuring our relationships, how do we get it to work in a way that's fulfilling for, you know, the partners that are involved in a monogamous relationship?

Kyle Pierce  1:34:05

Yeah, it should be a negotiation and is just supposed to like a mandate that one party sort of declares an over the other one.

Tristan Paylor  1:34:18

I mean, maybe relevant to these issues of questioning relationship structures and questioning at least what we think of as traditional models of relationships. I was non monogamous I was polyamorous for many years and changed you know my I am no longer you know, polyamorous, I'm very happily monogamous now. But sort of going through a period of questioning monogamy and questioning monogamous relationships was very insightful for me. I mean, I don't know if I can connect this at all to Juno's placement in my own chart being you know, conjunct Jupiter, I can't Yeah. All right. Well, I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say about this. Yeah, and I'm also looking forward to us getting to palace and, you know, palaces ability to notice patterns, because I feel like you are very skilled at that, and you've got a prominent palace in your chart. But yeah, that that period of questioning monogamy, you know, ultimately I did decide Monogamy was the correct relationship structure for me. But I went through a period of questioning it. And something that I learned during that period of questioning is that if people like polyamorous relationships are becoming increasingly visible, and, you know, one of the sort of challenges of polyamory is that in order to do it successfully, it requires a lot of open communication and a lot of negotiating boundaries and expectations. But what's interesting to me about that is that, you know, it's sort of we, we expect that non monogamous relationships are going to require so much communication and negotiation, but we underestimate how much communication and negotiation is required to keep monogamous relationships functional. It's, and there's a way because monogamy is the default setting. There is a way that I think people get into relationships with an expectation of monogamy. And what monogamy means to the people in that relationship is never discussed, right? It's like, does monogamy mean that I don't hold hands with my friend like a platonic hand holding? Yeah. Is that you know, am I? Is it okay for me to flirt with people online? Like where? Where do we draw the line, that is something that needs to be discussed. And not just assumed, but because when something is the default, a lot of things are left up to assumptions, and not communicated. And I think they're, I don't think that either polyamory or monogamy is better than the other. But I think where monogamy often fails is that people rely on assumptions and don't communicate their expectations out of the gate, because we're sort of able to follow this default script for our relationships. And it's not sort of like in our face all the time that oh, we really need to think about this, or we really need to talk about our feelings on this. Whereas with polyamory, it's like, you know, very, very clear that like, oh, we really need to talk about our feelings about this issue, because there is no cultural script for us to follow. We're making things up as we go along.

Kyle Pierce  1:37:43

I think I just think you just heard a swish, of, you know, like, the basket. You just nailed it. No, that's exactly it. Because we don't have that cultural script, like you said, like we don't have, it's not implicit or implied anymore, you know, those things do need to be discussed. And I think that mean, that's kind of what just mean, the asteroids in general, like are splitting off these these topics, these things that are relevant, that need to be kind of brought to our attention, sort of separated from kind of the idea of marriage and partnership in general. Because that whole idea has gotten a little, you know, there's some problems in there that maybe we need to sort through. So we need something else to like, reflect that on.

Tristan Paylor  1:38:33

Yeah, it's like highlighting that specific issue and sort of putting a neon sign, you know, this subset of relationship issues that, you know, is a sign that like, you guys really need to examine this.

Kyle Pierce  1:38:45

Yeah. Yeah. And just thinking about you and your chart is actually something that I looked up, because I remember now, and so much, has been a blur of researching asteroids. I forgot about it. But I'm really telling me that you met Keith was like, at the very end of your seventh house here, right?

Tristan Paylor  1:39:06

Yeah, yeah. The very tail end of my seventh house year, like, two or three days before it ended?

Kyle Pierce  1:39:12

Yeah. And I was kind of looking at the dates and I mean, it wasn't perfect, but I imagined that the period building up to that, that, you know, I haven't really gone into huge detail, but I mentioned the period that preceded meeting Keith entailed a lot of reevaluate, reevaluating nice and getting some new ideas about how you want to proceed and relationships which you know, coincides with Saturn Return and seventh house and everything but Uranus was also transiting it was in Taurus at the time. It just kind of gotten in there I think. Now, if I identified if it had gotten to Jupiter and Juno yet in your chart, but you know, you kind of undergoing a be considered maybe a radical change in your relationship style around Uranus transiting Juno, that sort of tie in to that that theme also having you know, Juno and Jupiter Trine is

Tristan Paylor  1:40:15

the ruler of your seventh. And pretty closely to

Kyle Pierce  1:40:19

just given from what you said, it sounds like you have lived in and done a lot of thinking about about the the topics related to Juno. So

Tristan Paylor  1:40:31

that's the good job. Kyle is a really good astrologer, I just want to take a moment to point that out to everyone who's thinking about getting an astrology reading that you will get insights like this from this human. So do it. Get a reading from Kyle. Because yeah, that's, that's exactly it.

Kyle Pierce  1:40:50

Thank you for the plug Tristan, you are at least a equally good astrologer. And I think the thing is that it's really hard to get those kinds of insights on yourself. It's true, Google looking at your own chart, like look at it all day you need, it's like cutting your own hair, you know, you to really get a nice, good clean cut, like you need granite, I cut my own hair now ever since the pandemic, but I do a pretty good job. But it you know, there's angles and spots that you can't see that that other people can seeing over the, you know, a rating with a excellent astrologer like Tristan will help you get that kind of insight for me too, you know, I'm alright.

Tristan Paylor  1:41:34

It is it is true. It's because I think we tend to we fixate on certain things, and we tend to find what we're looking for. And that's when it really helps to have someone else's perspective. Because I would not have caught that. And that is like eerily accurate. Where it was a very radical change. I went from a polyamorous relationship and from only being in polyamorous relationships for almost a decade to deciding this isn't for me anymore. And the reasons, you know, and this isn't a criticism of polyamory in general, you know, I'm sure it works great for some people. But I think the reasons that I was, were not the healthiest reasons. And I went through this long period of really examining what my reasons were for seeking that kind of relationship structure and whether or not my needs were being met within it. And the conclusion I came to is that my needs were not being met within that particular structure. Yeah, so it was, it was a pretty drastic change. Thank you, Uranus, and Juno, for helping me figure my shit out.

Kyle Pierce  1:42:48

Yeah. Well, are we think that's all we have for Juno or

Tristan Paylor  1:42:58

I actually have a really good chart example. For a Juno placement. I have Katharine Hepburn's chart, you Hathorne Hepburn probably doesn't need any introduction. Really. She was. I think the most I think she's won the most Oscars of any actress. She was like a classical Hollywood actress. Katharine Hepburn was born with Scorpio rising. Her ascendant was at seven degrees of Scorpio, and her Juno was at five degrees of Scorpio and retrograde which may or may not be relevant, but she was a very, very fiercely independent woman who married briefly, but she described herself as not being such a great wife. And she was very famous for being in a relationship with actor Spencer Tracy, who was her co star in nine different films. And Spencer Tracy was they were, I believe, both married when they met and started having their affair. And Spencer Tracy actually remained married to his wife, even while having the affair. They never separated. Katharine Hepburn never wanted a marriage with him. So there was no like competition in that sense. I guess that something may be unusual about this relationship for Catherine is that while she was generally so independent when it came to Tracy, she was very devoted. She actually spent several years Who's taking care of him when his health started declining in the 60s, she took a five year break from her career, which is really unusual for her. And a lot of people, you know, described her as being like very, like she changed when she was around Spencer Tracy, she just lit up around to him and she'd say, you know, like she would do anything for him. So it's just that when I think about Zeus and Hera and mythology I think about you know, the constant affairs and this weird contrast between you know, Zeus is infidelity and Harris devotion, like her almost single minded devotion. And I guess, you know, maybe there's some of those themes kind of coming up there where there's like, you know, an affair happening outside of a marriage, but there is also that theme of devotion.

Kyle Pierce  1:45:57

Yeah. Surely was Aphrodite married to slipping my mind?

Tristan Paylor  1:46:05

Her Festus but I don't think she was happy with that marriage. And she had an affair famously with areas that the gods shamed them for.

Kyle Pierce  1:46:14

Yeah, they were kind of obsessed with each other a little bit. Surely, from gather it was. I mean, there's a lot of jealousy with Aphrodite, actually, which we'll get to Palace here. After that, he was very jealous of palace. And all the time that palace got to spend with Aries.

Tristan Paylor  1:46:35

Do we want to move on to palace?

Kyle Pierce  1:46:40

Oh, well, listeners, Kyle here. I imagine you've been so enraptured by Tristan and I's riveting and incisive commentary of the asteroids, that you didn't even realize that we are rapidly approaching the two hour mark. And we only finished discussing two promised for asteroids. Now you're probably thinking, wow, Tristan, and Kyle. Those guys are pretty hardcore. And you're right. We are hardcore. But we also care about you listeners. And just like eating too much in one sitting in give you a bit of a tummy ache. Taking in too much information can have similar effects on your mind. Which is why we would like to give you an opportunity to digest everything by breaking this episode into two more reasonably portioned but equally delicious courses for the Augustus glutes out there listening on release day, you will find a second helping waiting for you tomorrow. But for the rest of you. You can continue on with palace and Vesta at your leisure by download inside beat this episode. As always, if you have a question you'd like to hear answered on astrology hotline, shoot us an email at astrology hotline pod@gmail.com Thanks for listening