Grand Crosses and the Birth Chart of Doom?

Kyle Pierce  00:00

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Tristan Paylor  01:28

Hello and welcome to astrology hotline to podcast where we answer your questions about astrology. My name is Tristan and hosting with me today is Kyle Pierce. Hello. How are you doing today cow?

Kyle Pierce  01:44

I'm doing quite well said my frappuccino. So if you want pretty good. How are you doing today?

Tristan Paylor  01:52

I'm pretty good. I haven't had a frappuccino so maybe not as good as you but no complaints. Otherwise it's kind of a dreary day here and my efforts to feed the local bird population before winter strikes are being thwarted by my backyard chipmunk.

Kyle Pierce  02:14

What is the chipmunk stealing the bird food?

Tristan Paylor  02:17

Oh yeah, I mean the chipmunk is getting all of the bird food. You guys are just jumping up there and stuffing her cheeks and leaving and then coming back for another. She's just horrid. She's holding it all she's transferring it from the bird feeder to wherever food stashes.

Kyle Pierce  02:35

Mean squirrels got a monk's gotta get get prepared for the winter to you know, they do I you know, I have maybe some extreme opinions about birds. So I might be on the chipmunk side in this case.

Tristan Paylor  02:53

Right, you're not dinosaurs. I mean, that's why I love them. They're evil. They're evil. Why did you know? Did you never go through the dinosaur phase as a kid? You don't think dinosaurs are cool?

Kyle Pierce  03:06

No, I think that dinosaurs are great. But they're they're extinct. And I'm glad that they're extinct. I don't want dinosaurs around. Well, I don't think anybody wants a pet dinosaur because that will probably eat your head. Birds would totally eat your head if they could, if they were big enough to bite it

Tristan Paylor  03:26

right. I've seen some pretty aggressive emus. So yeah, you might not be wrong on that.

Kyle Pierce  03:33

Reptile brains, flying rats. spreaders of disease

Tristan Paylor  03:40

oh my goodness, they're beautiful. They're spread disease but they're beautiful.

Kyle Pierce  03:48

I think we've had this conversation before where you know you check into because I don't seem to a lot of like ghost stories and stuff for Halloween coming up from getting getting in the Spirit. And you know, people get like messages from birds, you know, from spirits and they're like, kind of a long store goal. trend of you know, birds being like messengers from the other side. And that's maybe why I don't get any because I hate birds so much.

Tristan Paylor  04:18

Yeah, you might get some valuable information from the spirit world if if you just let birds alone. Give them a chance.

Kyle Pierce  04:28

I am fine with birds overall. I just did in the morning when they start chirping so early. It's so disturbing. Just like these little noises. Like in the morning when you're trying to sleep. Like that really early morning. I don't know that though. You get up at what maybe that's why you get up maybe it's the birds fault that you get up.

Tristan Paylor  04:55

It's the window cleaners fault. It's my partner who gets up Burley in the morning to go out and clean windows every day. He's He's the bird that gets me up.

Kyle Pierce  05:08

Yeah. Well,

05:12

I don't trust morning people.

Kyle Pierce  05:16

But I have never been a morning person. And yeah, birds, birds get in the way of of that.

Tristan Paylor  05:24

That's understandable. I can respect that I can respect wanting your peace in the morning. Yeah, it's interesting how in it sort of a trope in movies where the protagonist starts off, not being a morning person. And then they go on this whole adventure, and it's life changing. And then by the end of the movie, they're up at the crack of dawn, cooking breakfast, or whatever. And this is supposed to be like a demonstration of how they've like grown into themselves. And I kind of resent that because yeah, implies that people who are not morning people are like, somehow less advanced, like being a morning person is something we should strive for when it's like, it's actually a matter of your inherent biology, which is not under your conscious control is not a virtue be treated, the morning person is not emerged you any more than being a negative seeing a benefit. Yeah, it works in the current context of most of our working lives.

Kyle Pierce  06:23

Now I want to like see, see, that can look at a chart and see that seems very much like it like the dignity system in some way. And like, just by virtue of like your nature, you know, you just happen to fit into what society likes.

Tristan Paylor  06:37

And maybe this is a manifestation of my partner's exalted sun in Aries conjunct Jupiter is that he's able to be a morning person. Hmm, yeah, it's, it's what is favored by by society? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm, I'm, like, midnight to 9am Or like, 11pm to 8am kind of person. That's nice. That's not an early morning person. But

Kyle Pierce  07:05

if you take away all obligations, for me, I'm like 4am to, to noon person when I would like my body wants to sleep around dawn when the birds start chirping. And don't let me go to sleep. Though I don't get to do that now. Anyway, so thank you birds, for making.

Tristan Paylor  07:31

They're trying to hedge more on sustainable making sure. Making sure you get to work on time. They're just looking out for you. I would certainly be curious to know if either of our question askers this episode are morning people. Because our clearance because there's a lot of Cardinal energy happening in this episode. Lots of cardinal sign action going on. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce  08:00

good. Nice segue. Tristan.

Tristan Paylor  08:05

Yeah, you're welcome.

Kyle Pierce  08:07

brings us into our our first question. So our first question comes from jet. And jet has she has a Cardinal Grand Cross in her chart, and would like to know more about grand crosses, in general, but for more focus on Cardinal green crosses, in particular. And she has also shared her chart with us, which, you know, is a pretty awesome example of a Grand Cross so well. You know what first thing that comes to your mind when you think of grand grace is Tristan.

Tristan Paylor  08:44

The key words that come to mind for me are dynamic tension. And how that plays out obviously depends on the planets involved in the Grand Cross and the mode that they're in. I feel like it probably be helpful. In case we have listeners who are very new to astrology to define some of our terms first, so maybe we can explain what a Grand Cross is and what Cardinal means, because the modes are important when it comes to Grand crosses. So a Grand Cross is an aspect pattern. It is formed by four planets that are all in the same mode. The three modes are Cardinal, fixed and mutable. So all 12 signs of the zodiac can be divided into these three modes. And signs that have the same mode will either square or oppose one another by aspects which is a tense sort of aspect, a challenging aspect. Both the opposite addition and the square are associated with the malefic planets. So not as like easy and comfortable as the other aspects that could happen in a chart. So the signs that are configured by a Grand Cross all have mode in common, so they do have something in common. But there can potentially be some disagreement about what goal should be achieved with the energy they have, what sort of direction they should be going in, there can be some sort of competing interests happening. And it's, it's pretty easy to spot a Grand Cross in a chart, if you're looking at the pattern of aspects in the middle of a chart, you'll see a great big square with an X in the middle, because you'll have two axes of opposition and four squares between all four of these planets all configured to each other.

Kyle Pierce  11:04

four squares and two opposition's

Tristan Paylor  11:07

exactly. I feel like that was probably a really long winded explanation.

Kyle Pierce  11:13

No, me No. And that's that's the essence of a Grand Cross. But this was like other things I like to consider just in not just grand crosses, but like interpreting squares and opposition's you know, when you think of how the house system is set up, you know, what are the the powerful houses the most energetic houses, the they're the angular houses, the first, the fourth, the seventh, and the 10th. So I mean, you know, squares, and opposition's involve a lot of energy, you know, they're, they're powerful. And maybe, depending on the planets involved, and their relationship to each other, you know, it could be more positive or more negative, more challenging. But it gets, it's good to consider how powerful can be different than favorable. You know, or powerful, powerful isn't always easy. You know, it's not always smooth.

Tristan Paylor  12:19

And I think that's a common interpretation of the Grand Cross is that it is an aspect pattern. That takes a lot of work.

Kyle Pierce  12:29

But also, well, I mean, the, there's so many factors involved in interpreting any given brain cross, but it also involves a lot of energy. Which can be a good thing. I think the challenge given the how there is sort of a conflict built into all these squares, and opposition's is figuring out how to channel that in a in a positive way. And my son has a as a Cardinal Grand Cross. It's actually a very tight one. And it's funny watching him play video games, because he is never sitting down while he's playing. And he's always jumping, and talking, while he's playing. He's doing all these things, same time while playing this game. And that's kind of like what a Cardinal Grand Cross in particular, but Green Cross in general is that it's like multiple impulses or multiple intentions, that are kind of at odds, you know, like, when I sit in play video games, I sit and I hone in on on the game. You know, if you try to talk to me, while I'm doing that, I'll probably get annoyed with you. And while Declan likes to. He likes to talk to you while I was playing the game, he likes to talk to himself while he's playing the game. To move around. I would say that there are ways to start with a way to kind of manage that energy or I think traditionally, a lot of what makes a opposition well square more difficult is the lack of affinity I guess between the two elements, like Aries on a planet in Aries would be squaring a planet in cancer. So one is fire and one is water and the two very different elements. So I mean, you get boiling water, I suppose or but water could also put out the fire. They sort of destabilize to some degree but they also promote change. The interaction promotes change, while you know what stabilizing Trine is gonna maybe promote a more more stable movement more stable. And once they stay It is quo, but like a train, it's like, you know, starting a job and getting a promotion after you know, a certain amount of time or getting a steady raise, get along with your coworkers, while like a square might be like a sudden job change, or, you know, getting in a conflict with your boss, and maybe your boss gets fired, and then you get to take their job or something, or the other way around.

Tristan Paylor  15:28

And I think that's all that's all excellent, I love the description of a Grand Cross being sort of like multiple impulses, that are all trying to express themselves at once and all in different areas. And you know, the, the person who's dealing with that sort of energy in their life is sort of in this position of having to juggle all those different impulses and all the different directions they want to go in, you know, in this case, it's four different directions, you're sort of being pulled in all at once, I think, especially with the Cardinal Grand Cross, because Cardinal energy is all about momentum, and forward movement and initiation. It is all about change and initiating change. And you add cardinality to the symbolism of the square, which is the aspect of Mars, so you know, more challenging and more extreme, I like that comparison of like, you know, getting a job and, you know, sort of getting promoted, you know, when you're your job review, and everything is just kind of going along as expected. Like it's sort of going along according to script, that's very much what the train, the energy of the train is, like, you know, are being on the, the so called relationship escalator where you know, you, you date, and then you know, you get engaged and then you get married, you have kids, it's sort of like the traditional cultural script for how a relationship is supposed to change and grow or how, you know, the workplace is your position, or your workplace is supposed to change and grow. Whereas with a square, it's like, anything goes like anything could happen at any point, you could be bouncing from one extreme to the other. So it's that it's a little it's a little more chaotic.

Kyle Pierce  17:24

Yeah, and it's making me think of you, your preferred exercise routine is climbing stairs, right?

Tristan Paylor  17:33

Yeah, well, I was climbing stairs for a while, and then I got a hold of an exercise bike. So it's been it's been either way, it's the sort of like stationary, like, steady, you know, one direction at a time, kind of, it's not very kale. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce  17:50

Well, just, it's making me think of just the square by itself, right? And just the shape of it, it's right angle, you know, I'll try and it's like, a nice, you know, can you think of like a ramp? Did you kind of walk up the ramp, and you don't have to like, it's like a gentle, slow, gentle slope that you, you know, slowly climb up, and it doesn't take. You're not expending quite as much energy, at least not at one moment. But it might take you a little longer to get to the top of the, you know, has to be a longer ramp to get to cover the same distance. While stairs, you know, you climb up each stair and if you've ever climbed up Winchester years, wears you out pretty fast, right? So I kind of hard on your knees, but you can also get up to higher levels faster.

Tristan Paylor  18:42

Oh, yeah, that's a good point where it's like the steepness. So I feel like that. That's good commentary on the nature of Capricorn, which is a cardinal sign. And, you know, because Capricorn tends to be associated more with tradition and restraint. And you know, it has this sort of holding on or blocking kind of energy. I think sometimes it's hard to understand what makes Capricorn Cardinal but it's that like, you are moving, you're just moving through more difficult terrain. So your movement is maybe not as quick or as obvious as it would be in a sign like cancer or Aries, but you are nonetheless, you know, making forward movement. You're just kind of struggling for like climbing up very, very steep stairs. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce  19:37

Rugged, rugged terrain. Yeah, that makes me think we'll just say a bit about difference between Cardinal mutable and fixed, just so we maybe talk a little bit about like the differences between like a Cardinal Grand Cross and the fixed one and the mutable one. That Cardinal is all about, you know, initiating things, it's initiating actions that are the beginnings of things, starting things like a starting up a company or something. Fixed signs are, I guess, status quo to a degree, but they're kind of talking about things that are already established already happening. And they sort

Tristan Paylor  20:21

of they maintain the establishment. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce  20:24

there's more of a lasting quality to fix signs, but they're also you know, not as movable, you know, it's already happening, the momentum is already there. And mutable would be more about like the the endings of things, but also the more transitory you think of like seasons Pisces, for example. So mutable sign, it kind of comes at the very end of winter, just before spring, so there's kind of that in between period where it's kind of winter still, but it's, it's, you know, the snows kind of starting to melt, sort of like preparing for, for spring. So like mutable signs are a bit more adaptable, but they maybe have a similar struggle is like cardinal signs is kind of maintaining direction, right? Like they're not as sort of maybe what like mutable signs aren't as good at, like staying on one task, you know, for a long period of time.

Tristan Paylor  21:23

Yeah, I think of mutable as switching back and forth, or, or sort of being in two places at once or doing two things at once. The the traditional term for them as double bodied signs. And if you look at opportunity to symbols for the mutable signs, yeah, there have two natures, or they're literally split in two. And you can see it with all of the symbols even, you know, Virgo is maybe the least obvious but Virgo is often depicted as an angel, which is of two natures right of, of the mind and spirit, you have a human who also has some sort of divine nature as well. And you know, Gemini and Pisces are pretty obvious because they're both symbolized by two things. And you know, this, the center of Sagittarius is half human, half horse. So you with all four signs, you have this meeting of two natures, sort of both acting at once, or alternating. And I think that's sort of the key difference between mutable and Cardinal, because both of those modalities are about change. But in the case of Cardinal, it's more like, you know, moving from one thing to the next, and with mutable, it's more about having your foot your feet planted in two different worlds simultaneously. Yeah. And having to sort of be flexible, because you never know what sort of demands might be placed on you by the sort of opposite expectations.

Kyle Pierce  22:46

Yeah, and I guess thinking about that, in the context of grand crosses, like a generally, I mean, a lot of the common discussion around Grand crosses and think in practice, when I, like, I've noticed is that Cardinal Grand crosses are a little I want to say easier, but they're a little. Like a Grand Cross is more compatible with the nature of Cardinal signs in general. Yeah. Can you think of somebody like kind of, like constantly starting new things? Like I don't know, like getting like multiple balls rolling? And maybe always having these like, different balls rolling all the time. So it makes me think of the way that he you know, anything about how like, electric motors work?

Tristan Paylor  23:42

I'm absolutely terrible at anything mechanical. I did not understand it.

Kyle Pierce  23:47

Yeah. I mean, I don't I only know the essence of of it. I am not mechanical in any way. Yeah, so essentially, the way a motor works is, you know, when a electric current passes through a coil, in a magnetic field, the magnetic force produces like torque, which turns the motor and then there's like a communicator that like reverses the current, each half revolution to like keep the torque turning the same coil, like in the same direction. So like, you know, creates this very, you know, active movement. And while it's only you know, dealing with two pole poles like a good well oiled Grand Cross, makes me think of that of like how electric motor works. It's a lot of dynamic energy. That when you know going smoothly, can generate a lot of power generate a lot of dynamic action. It can be like very constructive.

Tristan Paylor  24:58

It can but I can imagine it you No, can also get very tiring because that motor does not shut off in the case of a Cardinal Grand Cross going, although you know the the nature of the planets involved can change that with with jets, Cardinal Grand Cross in particular, the four planets involved our Jupiter, Mars, Venus and the moon. And we've got Jet's chart up in the show notes. So if you want to take a look at it and follow along, please do so. So jet was born with Libra rising. And Jupiter is in Libra as well in the first house. So if you've been listening carefully, you may already realize that this particular garden Cardinal Grand Cross is taking place in the angular houses in jets chart, because Cardinal planet number one is Jupiter in Libra right there in the first house. Then we have the Moon in Capricorn, in the fourth house forming another point of the Grand Cross. And then in the seventh house, we have Venus in Aries. And finally, in the 10th house, we have Mars in Cancer. And that completes our Grand Cross of Cardinal planets. So something I find kind of interesting about this one is that you have some like, pretty soft and gentle planets making up you know, the three points at the bottom of the Grand Cross, at least, you know, visually in this chart there at the bottom there. And although like, you know, the moon and Capricorn and Venus in Aries are maybe not as traditionally soft and fluffy as the Moon and Venus are sort of like pure archetypes of themselves. It's, you know, despite being like, you know, them all squaring and opposing each other, you know, those are generally pretty gentle natured planets. And when you have a square from a benefic planet, like Jupiter or Venus, it's actually really supportive. And if the benefic is earlier in the order of zodiacal signs, and it's squaring another planet, it's actually modifying that planet so it's, it's giving it so much support that ancient astrologers are just like, this is one of the best things that you can possibly have in a chart. So even though it's like it's still a tense aspect, when you have the benefits involved, it's it's a little bit less like somebody's trying to fight you and a little bit more like, you know, maybe an accountability buddy who, you know, they, they do light a little bit of a fire under your butt to get moving, but in a very supportive, friendly, gentle sort of way, you know, and they're, they're providing resources and, you know, maybe wisdom and advice like, in the case of Jupiter and Libra, squaring the Moon in Capricorn, Jupiter is you know, quantifying the moon. So you know, that sort of like, Jupiter may be acting as a mentor, or, you know, giving the moon some good advice or giving the moon like connections or, you know, literal resources that help the moon do what it wants to do. So, it's, it's still, you know, a little bit more active than if that was a Trine but it's nonetheless like, you know, not traditionally a difficult aspect despite being a square. But then when you get to the top of the Grand Cross, you have Mars and I feel like Mars is really the, you know, the one that's kind of moving all of this and like injecting a little bit of like fire and sharpness into this overall Grand Cross and sort of stirring the pot.

Kyle Pierce  29:09

Yeah. Yeah, well, it's mean, squares or the nature of Mars, right? But squares with like, genetics, or software planets, you know, I think like, the essential energy of a square is just, it's excessive to some degree, or just like a lot. So, you know, that can look like more. You know, just thinking of like the mentor. analogy, like you have your mentor that's like, way to go like, you know, you're on the right track. You know, maybe touch up this here and there. You know, keep putting your work in and like, you know, you're on your way to, you know, that fantastic acid essay that you've been wanting to write while like You know, with the square like Jupiter, squaring the moon, right? Look a little more like, more energetic, enthusiastic, praise or enthusiasm. You want to like push forward faster, can be a little excessive, though, like maybe unrealistic expectations that are overall positive, like pushing you forward in a positive direction

Tristan Paylor  30:31

creates sort of a high standard to live up to. Yeah, there's like he has a real sense of ambition.

Kyle Pierce  30:39

Yeah, when I think like Moon Jupiter, I always just feel like, like optimism, you know, right, it's very, adds a lot of optimism to the moon, right to your emotional state to some degree. And then like a smoother aspect, you know, it's a little more realistic optimism. But in like a harder aspect, it might be a little more excessive, you know, that could be, you know, met with disappointment here and there, too. I guess, you know, the, the hard aspects being of the nature of both in the Olympics in the Olympics, and dealing with extremes, I do like to think of excess with hard aspects, which can be nice. If it's like, Jupiter, or square Venus, having excess money, or friends, is great. But they can also, you know, you could party too much as well,

Tristan Paylor  31:36

I think some of the potential difficulties with the nature of a Cardinal Grand Cross are a risk of burnout, you know, trying to take on too much trying to do too much trying to do too much at once, not giving yourself enough of a break between projects or feeling pulled in, you know, in this case, you're literally being pulled in four directions at once, that's sort of the visually, that's what the Grand Cross is, is like your life sort of being pulled with the same amount of like, intensity and ambition, but in four different directions, all at the same time. Which, you know, some people can certainly pull off, but you know, there's, there's a point at which you need to stop and rest because there is only so much that any one of us is capable of. And this one in particular, you know, taking place in the angular houses is really interesting, because you have a planet in the first house, which has to do with the self, and, you know, having a strong sense of individual identity. And the fourth house, which has to do with home and family, and the seventh house that has to do with relationships, and the 10th house, that has to do with your career, and your you know, interface with the world and your public life, which are all sort of, you know, they're the angular houses, because those are the four sort of most pivotal and usually significant areas of life for all of us that are pretty universal, right? You know, that's, that is where we encounter things that profoundly change us and that move our story forward significantly. So there can be, you know, perhaps a sense of competing ambitions where it's like, you know, I want to be the best me I can possibly be is what Jupiter in the first house is saying, and, you know, the moon in the fourth house is saying, like, I want to be, you know, the best family member ever, and I want to have, you know, a really fulfilling private life and have like, a lovely home, I want it to be like clean and organized and you know, all of the sorts of ambitions you could have related to home and family and then you know, Venus in the seventh house is like I want to have really great relationships and you know, be it be an expert on you know, interpersonal interaction and the Mars in the 10th is like, I want to be I want a legacy, you know, I want to make a name for myself in the world, and have you know, pursue a career that gives me a sense of purpose and trying to have all four of those things sort of like maxtow You're sort of like mid maxing and a video game right like it's, that's a lot like it's it's certainly a worthwhile ambition to have but you know, there's this sense of like, wanting to be the best and achieve as much as possible in like all of the really significant areas of life all at once.

Kyle Pierce  34:48

Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, that's like the maxing out your your video game character analogy. It's like usually most games like there's like a you know, you get so many wonder XP points that You can put towards different upgrading different skills, you know, so you're not going to get like a character with 100 points in all, all the different categories, you know, usually emphasizing like agility is going to come at the expense of something else, you know, if you want to be agile you need you can't be as strong or something. So yeah, I think Grendel Grendel, a

Tristan Paylor  35:28

garden home grant grant an owl, or just a

Kyle Pierce  35:31

Green Cross in general. Yeah, it's gonna kind of look like that, like, wanting to put so much energy in so many different things. But you, there's a maximum limit, human wise and time wise to, you know, how much you can accomplish in each area, like you kind of have to, to focus it a bit. To get results, it's gonna look like starting a lot of things, maybe not finishing them in theory.

Tristan Paylor  36:02

You know, there's, so I have, I don't have a Grand Cross in my chart. But I do have an extremely Cardinal chart. It's like, 95% Cardinal, it's ridiculous how Cardinal my chart is. When I was first doing astrology classes, my astrology teacher put all of our charts up on the wall. And mine was the one chart that would not stay stuck to the wall. Yeah, it just kept the tape kept peeling away from the wall, and it kept falling down. And we would just joke that like it was it was to Cardinal to stay in this place. And I remember, as a kid, reading some sort of children's novel, I don't remember the book. I don't remember what it was about. But I have a vivid memory of this one scene in the book, where a character got into an apple harvest, I think, and just took a single bite out of every single one of the Oh, yeah, like that. Yeah. And like, you know, when their parent or caregiver, whoever it was, saw what happened, they were just like, I mean, you know, the whole the apple harvest was ruined. But like, instead of getting, you know, angry and upset, they were like, Why did you do this? And the kid was like, because the first byte tastes the best. That's the best one. And I've never related to anything so hard in my entire life. Like, I've forgotten the whole the context that the story was in, but I was just like, Yeah, it's true. The first the first bite is the best. And I think Cardinal energy can be a bit like that, like taking one bite out of 1000 apples. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce  37:48

Yeah, that's, that's a great analogy. Say I have a very fixed chart. We think like, what, six of my planets are involved in a T square, which is not quite the same as his Grand Cross, but similar. And yeah, I do. I have a similar tendency to want to put a lot of energy and a lot of different things. But it do have a little bit harder of a time with initiating things kind of want to skip to the, to the middle part of the language where everything's just running smoothly, I want to get to that part. And there's kind of the frustration with like, a more of a fixed goodbye, that to like a Grand Cross, like a fixed Grand Cross would be harder to get moving. You know, you'd like a lot more stuck sort of energy. Leave a lot of it's gonna say like a catch. 22.

Tristan Paylor  38:40

Like, do I like that description of just wanting to get to the middle part? You know, just wanting it's funny because I

Kyle Pierce  38:48

don't eat the crust. When I want the oldest stuff in the middle.

Tristan Paylor  38:51

Yeah, you want the middle of the Oreo, juicy middle part. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce  38:57

I want to get a little bit more into focus a little bit on jets, Grand Cross,

Tristan Paylor  39:02

because there is no Saturn in this Grand Cross. So it's really the wheels turning, there's kind of nobody, nobody has their foot on the brake. In this particular Grand Cross.

Kyle Pierce  39:13

Yeah, they're all planets that are down to move, you know? Yeah, the moon is very fast moving Venus. You know, benefics I mean, just Jupiter, it has its domiciles are mutable but has an exultation and a cardinal sign. Venus has a domicile in the cardinal sign. The moon, you know, it's domiciles Cardinal Mars likes Cardinal. They're there, you know. You're down to move. So I would Yeah, I would think a lot of restless movement, but there. I would think that like, when there's a lot of reception involved, I think that you get a little bit more of the electric motor running as opposed was two parts a bunch of parts that don't really fit together, you know, like finding a way to, to harmonize them or to combine things is gonna be easier. I think when there's reception and there's quite a bit in this one

Tristan Paylor  40:18

you got a lot, there's a lot of reception going on there a lot of like, there's some potential disagreements, but there are a lot of there's a lot of sympathy going on as well.

Kyle Pierce  40:28

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think like Venus is an Aries. And it's in the overcoming square with Mars, and Mars rules Aries. So I mean, there is a sort of an exchange of like a trade relationship or something between countries where you have something you want, and you have something I want, so we don't need to fight each other. It's, it's actually more profitable for us not to fight in, in, you know, do business,

Tristan Paylor  40:57

and the Venus being in the seventh house, representing relationships and partnerships. But also being an Aries, which is the sign of Venus is detriment, you know, which could indicate relationships that are a little more unconventional, or that go against the grain in some way. But nonetheless, you know, those relationships are supporting what Mars is trying to do. So, you know, this can be, you know, you you want to have the greatest relationships and also have the greatest career, but they're, those two areas of life are actually potentially really working together. Well, yeah, both of the planets are in kind of unconventional signs. So you know, if it's a, a relationship, that's, you know, a little a little Venus and Aries II, you know, a little bit a relationship that kind of goes off script or sort of defies norms or expectations in some way, Mars in Cancer is also a Mars that defies expectations. So, you know, they've kind of got each other's back in that sense. And, you know, because Venus is in the domicile of Mars and is in, you know, the overcoming position, it's sort of like, Venus is being treated as a guest of Mars, but also has, you know, a certain amount of power in that situation. You know, because Venus is earlier in zodiacal order, you know, Venus is able to, to make demands of their host. Yeah, so, you know, I would, I would think that's actually like, it's, it's dynamic, and, you know, potentially challenging and that, you know, what you might want to do in those two areas of life, you know, you may have to do some of those, you know, achieve some of those goals in a way that is defiant of, you know, what is expected of you. But, nonetheless, those two areas of life are supporting one another. Yeah, it's not a contest. It's not like it's sometimes with grand crosses, it can be like one area of life, implicated in the Grand Cross needs to be sacrificed for another or, you know, like, how do you compromise between these four competing interests, and there's one that's sort of asking the other to make a sacrifice, like you need to spend less time on your relationships if you want to pursue you know, graduate degree or whatever it is, you know, those two areas of your life are demanding that one of them needs to be sacrificed for the other in this section of the Grand Cross it doesn't look like that kind of situation. It doesn't look like relationships or career needs to be sacrificed for the other

Kyle Pierce  43:58

No. You know, not necessarily how it's played out or played out yet but that makes me think of like a like a power couple. Like there are a couple

Tristan Paylor  44:10

eccentric power couple but

Kyle Pierce  44:13

like they don't have to Yeah, they don't have to exist as two separate spheres of life like there's ways that they can merge yeah to some degree and support each other. Which Yeah, which I thought the ways I can think of that that would play out more favorably similarly to like with the Venus Venus is opposing Jupiter in the first and Venus rules Jupiter you know like there's a there's reception there not that we would be too worried about a Venus Jupiter opposition and thankfully I think

Tristan Paylor  44:55

realizing Yeah, also that that's

Kyle Pierce  44:59

why We are and energetic, enthusiastic.

Tristan Paylor  45:05

And so when I think of when I think of like Venus and Jupiter and heart aspect to each other, I think more of like two friends who really love each other, like shouting overtop of other voices and music at a bar so they can hear each other, you know, or it's just like that kind of exuberant,

Kyle Pierce  45:19

energy and each other to more and more fire

Tristan Paylor  45:22

pushing each other to succeed a little.

Kyle Pierce  45:25

Yeah, that one I like. And Jupiter is also in a position where it can modify the moon and overcoming square with with the moon, in Capricorn in the fourth, which I think helps. The fact that like Mars has been modified by Venus in the moon has been modified by Jupiter. And it helps with that opposition, the Moon and Mars. But there is some reception there as well. Mars, exalted in Capricorn, in the moon rules, cancer, like a mixed reception, not that that's gonna, you know, make that the easiest aspect in the world by any means, but it's, it's gonna help a lot. It describes like a, like difficulty, but it's sort of, because they are to some degree responsible to each other, Mars and the Moon. There, it sort of points to a path to like integrating the two, to making them more cooperative, or making, you know, more maybe more obvious, obvious, but more accessible solutions to the problems that that opposition describes.

Tristan Paylor  46:43

And looking in to that opposition with more detail. You know, we've got the moon in the fourth house and Mars in the 10th. And the moon is generally about relaxation, and how we get comfortable, how we take care of ourselves, you know, the the moon is, is a cozy sort of energy, and, you know, has to do with like, where we're doing the moon, when we are unwinding, you know, we're doing the moon when we're nourishing ourselves, you know, when we're taking a nice bubble bath and having a snack like that's, that's a lunar activity, typically not marketing, not when we're on Mars, saying, you know, we're out trying to take over the world. So, you know, those two planets are generally at odds with each other, which is also why, you know, they don't tend to be super comfortable in each other's signs. So with, you know, the Mars opposition. One way that can manifest is difficulty relaxing, because the moon is how we get comfortable, and Mars is like, there's always a crisis, there's always an emergency as far as Mars is concerned, and there's always something else to do, and you need to always be vigilant and ready to act quickly. You know, in the poor Moon is like, I'm just trying to have a cup of tea and read my book and Mars is like, but at any moment, an alarm bell could go off, and you need to be ready. So there's, you know, and because of the houses they're in, that kind of fits in with the symbolism well to since the moon is in the fourth house, which is about home and private life. So like the moon here is really just like, I just want to go, you know, in into my private space, and, you know, not be seen by anybody and just relax and Mars is up there, like wanting to be seen in this very public place, being very ambitious being like, you know, we've got, you know, we don't have time for this, we've, we've got to keep working and working and working in order to, you know, achieve these ambitions. So it could, you know, potentially be a very restless energy that, you know, could be liable to burnout. But because the moon is in Mars, a sign of exultation, and Mars is in the moon's domicile, they do have a little more sympathy for each other. And they're able to kind of exchange resources a little bit, which I think takes the edge off of that combination.

Kyle Pierce  49:13

Yeah. Yeah, that was a good deal the edge and, like, you know, you can work from home, right? I mean, there's there's way Yeah, merge the fourth and 10th houses. Yeah, it's not like an impossible thing. And having, you know, reception between the planets ruling those houses or plants in those houses, like is going to go by create like avenues, sort of outlets. So I mean, it's, I don't want to say like, oh, you know, it's gonna be easy to to sit back and relax and have your tea. But it may be like, I don't know, the some degree it's makes me think about the shark. How sharks can never stop swimming.

Tristan Paylor  49:54

Right? They can't just, yeah, they still they gotta keep moving

Kyle Pierce  49:57

while they swim while they sleep. You know? Yeah. After they drown if they don't, that's a really good image. So I mean, there's a way that like that that movement, that constant like energy and restlessness, it probably feels best, you know, when you're actually moving and acting on things, which can be very productive. But then yeah, like he's interested in the burnout. So, you know, I mean, it seems like having, I don't know, a cycle that could work pretty well of, you know, working hard and playing hard, or, you know, going on a nice vacation after, you know, a long stint of workaholism?

Tristan Paylor  50:38

Well, yeah, it's that the sort of extreme nature of these aspects and also just the extreme nature of literally anything that involves Mars, I think about will even like, you know, what my partner does, who has a very prolific chart. And his work is very seasonal. So he works insanely hard, you know, like 10 hour days, doing, like really demanding physical labor, and a ton of commuting, like he travels for hours every day. And then, you know, he has a whole bunch of projects at home, some of which are also connected to career. And so you know, he'll come home after a 10 hour shift, and you know, work for three more. And that's just you know, how he is, but then, because of the nature of his work, he also gets most of the winter off. So it's that going from one extreme to the next, like, you work yourself, you know, like a horse, and then you take, you know, a lot more time off at once compared to other people mean tea, I don't know I a lot about teaching, but I feel like teaching can probably be one of those jobs, too, or it's just like really demanding, and really intense when you're at work. And then you know, you get the summer off. And, yeah, so you're sort of bouncing between those two extremes all the time. Yeah. And

Kyle Pierce  51:59

I mean, that, I think the key is finding the balance, finding balance in that. And that could look very differently. I mean, it be like a daily sort of balance that maybe, like a broader scale, like, a seasonal sort of balance. But I mean, I think maybe the obvious problem to me is just the burnout, but just yeah, like even noticing when you're burning out, and maybe not until it's too late. Maybe having to do that a couple of times before you maybe get the message of like, oh, this is what happens when I'm burning out or when I'm not taking care of myself working too much.

Tristan Paylor  52:35

Yeah, that's thing that's the case with sort of more extreme types of energy is that you don't always when you're in the thick of it, you know, you're just sort of intoxicated by that, you know, needing to keep moving forward. And you don't actually know where the limits are until you reach them. And you hit that wall. I think that can be, you know, one of the characteristics of squares, and opposition's as you, you kind of do have to go too far a couple of times in order to know where to far is and then you're like, Okay, I understand how to work with this now. But you kind of have to learn the lesson the hard way at times.

Kyle Pierce  53:15

I mean, speaking from experience, and to some degree, it's a can t squares not quite the same, but he gets some similar manifestations? I don't know. Yeah, almost like, it's like the hard aspects make things more Cardinal like. And I think maybe with a fixed grand grace or T square, aspect pattern like that. It's learning to be more fixed, learning to take a slower, steadier pace. I know once I start doing something I'm into, I want to do it for the next, you know, 20 hours if I can. But obviously, that would be very destabilizing.

Tristan Paylor  53:54

And I think maybe one of the sort of key differences between a a cardinal or mutable Grand Cross and a fixed one is that, you know, you potentially have these competing interests. And in the case of, you know, Cardinal, you're all going to try to like start at once and sort of yell over top of each other. And with mutable, you're going to try to juggle everything at once. And with fixed, it's like everybody, you don't get started at all, because everyone is disagreeing about what to do. So you're kind of stuck in that stage of like, okay, well, who's going to win? And, you know, they can't decide like, what direction do we go in first because they all want to go into four different places, but I you know, and I think of like the cardinal version, it reminds me a little bit more of the picture on the two of Pentacles and a Rider Waite deck where you know, there's this like swirling see with all the waves behind the figure and the boats are kind of being tossed on the sea and the figure is juggling, you know, the two Pentacles and like dancing at the same time, where it's just like I'm doing everything at once and Meanwhile, you know is Fixed sign buddy is just like I haven't even started yet.

Kyle Pierce  55:05

I know which one I want to juggle right now. Yeah, it's been one for a long time. And then yeah, maybe addressed the other one later on. When I'm in the mood debts,

Tristan Paylor  55:15

maybe a bit more of a four of pentacles energy where the figure is just like sitting there hunched over, like hanging on to all the Pentacles. Like, I could do something with each of these four Pentacles. But I don't really know what to do first, so I'm just gonna hold. And meanwhile, the cardinal one is just like, I'm gonna use all four coins at once and just hope for the best.

Kyle Pierce  55:37

Yeah. Yeah, I think like, traditionally, a lot of like, the interpretive principles of astrology, it all kind of comes down to affinity between planets and what situation they're in. So I do find that, you know, a Grand Cross has more affinity to Cardinal signs, and even like Angular houses as well.

Tristan Paylor  55:59

Yeah, where they're action oriented houses, they're change oriented houses, they're focused on movement. And they're sort of they're the peak, right? Like, they're the culmination point. So there's that sense of like, elevated, the things that are in them are elevated, and there's also just like, an intense concentration of like, focused energy.

Kyle Pierce  56:23

Yeah, some sounds like a busy life.

Tristan Paylor  56:27

It does. It does sound like a busy life. I do I do want to say that I know Jack personally. And she is just like an incredibly wise and supportive and generous and kind person. So if any listeners are looking at her chart, and they're curious to know what the chart of a incredibly decent human being looks like, you are looking at it. This is just the chart of a very Jupiter in the first Yeah, Jupiter in the first There you go. Just like friendly and generous and supportive. That's the Jupiter is that like, you know, person you look up to who's like always there for you kind of energy.

Kyle Pierce  57:09

Yeah, it's, I like this chart. I don't think it's fun. I mean, yeah.

Tristan Paylor  57:17

It's just like, almost all the planets are in places, they're not supposed to be there. Like five of the seven traditional planets are either in detriment or fall and they're just like, you know, we're just gonna make the most of this somehow

Kyle Pierce  57:30

they got my like UFC reach that research is really got me rethinking how important dignity really is, I don't know, I don't know if like planet has to be in a good sign to function. Well. Think even, like, a lot of traditional thinking is more focused on house placement and angularity and all that. Yeah. But they definitely come with challenges, but said it before say it again. I think there's a lot of room in the world now for people acting. In non traditional ways, or

Tristan Paylor  58:07

maybe when it's green a little bit. Yeah, maybe that's I mean, you know, the world is still a pretty difficult place. But you know, if you think about, you know, like, where I'm sitting in Canada, in the 21st century, compared to you know, somebody living 1000 years ago, it's this sort of extreme interpretations of planets in different sorts of dignity, in traditional astrology and maybe make more sense in a society where it's like, most people are you know, they most most people in that society don't have any power whatsoever. Yeah, and they're just kind of at the whim of this system in a really sort of extreme way. You know, whereas, like, I'm somebody who doesn't have a lot of you know, sort of power and influence or whatever, but, like, there's more sort of room for me in in the world than there would have been, you know, 1000 years ago.

Kyle Pierce  59:25

Maybe like, not at the world, in the world at large but like within your, you know, your community within your communities you're involved in Yeah,

Tristan Paylor  59:33

that's that's a good way to put it. But yeah, I guess it's like, there are spaces for me even though in a lot of ways, I am unconventional and sort of, you know, the the usual scripts don't tend to include me there are at least still spaces for me where I can, you know, have influence and like, have community and express myself and you know, there are or more opportunities for me to make creative use of sort of the unusual circumstances I've been dealt whereas, you know, in, in other times in human history, that would not have been the case.

Kyle Pierce  1:00:14

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's, you know, it's like want to qualify everything that I say but I mean, the world now is not, you know, all roses and, you know, cherry orchards and stuff it but things have improved, I guess a lot for people who are operating outside of convention, right? Yeah. Doesn't make it easy. It just means that there are communities where it were, your voice can be heard, tend to be what I think about like with dignity a lot is the ruling planet being kind of the expectation that the planet is being held to some degree, whether internally or externally.

Tristan Paylor  1:00:54

I think a conversation about dignity might be a good segue into our next question.

Kyle Pierce  1:01:03

Yeah, yeah.

Tristan Paylor  1:01:06

Our second question comes from Karolina who is a Karolina I'm realizing I don't know how to pronounce your name. I'm very sorry.

Kyle Pierce  1:01:16

Karolina Karolina same had

Tristan Paylor  1:01:19

him for now. Yeah, let's let's go with that and I apologize if that is incorrect. So Karolina wants to know, if she is doomed with so many fallen or debilitated planets and squares in her chart. She also wants to know how one should react to challenging aspects like squares and opposition's or difficult dignities and also how this relates to one's karma. Good question. And I've got Carolina's chart is in the show notes, if anyone wants to follow along with our interpretation and everything? Well,

Kyle Pierce  1:02:00

um, start off the answer is no. And, yeah, next question.

Tristan Paylor  1:02:07

The answer is you're, you're most certainly not doomed. I think I can speak for both Kyle and I, in saying that we do not belong to a school of thought that one's birth chart dictates their destiny. Or that, you know, traditionally difficult placements in a birth chart indicate any sort of doom and gloom, they can manifest in all kinds of ways. And sometimes they just manifest in really quirky, weird ways that, you know, are not necessarily, you know, evil, or, you know, anything sort of scary like that.

Kyle Pierce  1:02:45

Yeah. One, I mean, sometimes they, they do describe difficult situations or experiences, but, you know, we also have a lot of agency and how we respond to that, and I guess, my thoughts get drawn to the second part of the question, which is like, how to respond to your difficult placements in the chart when you see them. And that's mainly, I mean, I guess, it's good to get a sense of like, what the traditional interpretations are what, you know, maybe two, astrologers have to say about it. But I find it personally, like valuable to, you know, they are difficult placements, like how they might have already played out in your life, and often indicate just stuff that maybe already happened, or maybe not even stuff that happened, just the way you feel about certain things. And, um, sort of like a degree of maybe even like, accepting that, like, okay, that that happened, this or that happened. But in many cases, you know, you might already be doing things that like, manage that, you know, or you may already be working with that in a much more constructive way. Like myself seeing some of my more difficult placements and accepting the negative ways that maybe they have played out, um, sort of like a good ended up being like constructive in the sense of like, okay, I see, you know, that happened, all right. I can't change you know, what's already happened, but I can maybe change or maybe already have changed in many ways, how I react to it, or how I you know, I'm already or can in the future. Work with that like a more constructive way or a more positive way and often even just like a difficult placement can describe a lot of different things and not all of them are difficult, you know?

Tristan Paylor  1:04:57

And some some things that are challenging or or difficult are enjoyable, you know, depending on your temperament. And, you know, looking at curliness chart here, I see that the sun is in areas. So, you know, and Mars is conjunct the ascendant in the first house, and, you know, those are indications of being someone who doesn't necessarily shy away from challenge. So, you know, not everybody wants the kind of life where everything just goes smoothly, and they're never challenged. Like, that's very boring. You know, sometimes being unsatisfied in a subject of study or at a job or in a relationship can be because it's too boring, there's just there's nothing about it, that kind of forces you to change or grow in any way. And, you know, people have different temperaments where that is concerned. Some people would prefer life to be a little bit of an adventure. And so, you know, difficult or challenging situations, you know, depending on the kind of situations you're talking about, and what sort of temperament you have are not necessarily bad. I also think when, because you, Karolina mentioned, as well, you know, starting to study a little bit more Hellenistic astrology. And one thing that Chris Brennan, who I learned Hellenistic astrology from says, quite a lot, I think, you know, he repeats on the astrology podcast fairly often. And I'm glad he repeats it is, you know, the delineations that you read in traditional texts for placements are going to be very extreme. Because when you're trying to teach somebody, the nature of these symbols, it's more extreme situations are more memorable. And, and tell you more about sort of, like, where are what are these symbols about? And where are their limits? For most people, you know, that placement is not going to manifest as the worst case scenario. But you know, the best case scenario or the worst case scenario, those are really valuable teaching tools. It's like, you know, using case studies, right, like using remarkable case studies, to learn about people or situations, those case studies don't necessarily generalize well, to the whole population. But nonetheless, they they do still teach you a lot about certain things by showing you really unusual or extreme circumstances. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, something to keep in mind when you're reading those traditional interpretations is that of course, they're extreme, because that's what you're going to remember. And that's what's going to help you learn. But most of the time, that's not actually you know, realistically what goes on in the average person's life.

Kyle Pierce  1:08:03

Yeah, absolutely. True. Do you mind if I just described the chart a little bit for listeners? Yeah, go for it and get a sense of what's going on. Because it's actually funny that I'm here Lena and jet were born within two months of each other. But be within Yeah, think too much of each other actually. Very similar charts and there's a similar Grand Cross going on in Carolyn's chart, so

Tristan Paylor  1:08:31

in the angular houses and no

Kyle Pierce  1:08:33

less, so you guys should be friends.

Tristan Paylor  1:08:38

Yes, become friends.

Kyle Pierce  1:08:40

Also, Karolina was born with cancer rising with Mars conjunct the ascendant. 20 degrees in cancer and the sun in Aries in the 10th house, and the Moon in Libra in the fourth house. Jupiter is also in the fourth house in Libra. Venus is in Aries in in Libra, and I'm

Tristan Paylor  1:09:07

sorry Venus is in

Kyle Pierce  1:09:09

because it's an Aries and Libra

Tristan Paylor  1:09:12

in Aries in the 10th house

Kyle Pierce  1:09:13

Aries in the 10th house. Yes. And Mars is opposing Neptune and Uranus in Capricorn in the seventh. Mercury is in Pisces in the ninth house and Saturn is in Aquarius in the eighth house. So happy Saturn Return Karolina

Tristan Paylor  1:09:33

oh yeah happy Saturn Return jet and Karolina very excited. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce  1:09:39

yeah, just getting the basis of the chart so similar themes going on, but I'm kinda going back to what you were saying about getting into Hellenistic astrology is like yeah, the initial reaction to like the interpretations and everything. They are very extreme. But I guess also thing to keep in mind And the deeper you get into it, there's like a lot of other factors always at play to consider as well.

Tristan Paylor  1:10:07

And there are a lot of mitigating factors in this chart as well. Even though you know, you do have a bunch of planets that are not traditionally dignified like Mercury's in Pisces, Venus is an Aries. Mars is in cancer right on the ascendant. So those three planets, you know, all stand out as being, you know, in signs that are a little awkward for them. And also, you know, being pretty visible, you know, Venus is up in the 10th. And Mars is extremely Angular right on the ascendant. So, you know, they're very prominent planets in the chart as well.

Kyle Pierce  1:10:40

Yeah. Why now, that is the first thing when we see a planet like right on the ascendant, your eye kind of immediately gets drawn to that. And first thing I thought even just seeing that was mirrored with like Michael Phelps, a Olympic, if he does it professionally anymore, but he was a big Olympic swimmer to Mars and cancer swimming, like, actually, I would say, is great remediation for Mars and cancer, if you ever want to take up swimming, or maybe you do already. But Michael Phelps actually did an interesting documentary not that long ago about that's been a while since I've watched it, but it was about, like, the unhealthy patterns that athletes get into, like the obsession to win. And, you know, particularly like I think, was about Olympic athletes, and how they would spend four years training for the Olympics. And then you know, whether they won or not, you know, the end of the day after that, they almost almost say universally, but a majority of them fell into like, huge deep depressions. And it's kind of like a huge come down, and then having to figure out like what to do with your life after, after that, but I just thought that was an interesting manifestation of that for like a fallen Mars and in the first house for like an athlete who ends up succeeding quite prominently as an athlete, champion swimmer. But then kind of challenging the culture around athleticism, and kind of like exploring the drawbacks and dark side of the way that athletes themselves approach athletics in the way we expect from athletes.

Tristan Paylor  1:12:20

Mm hmm. Yeah, and I think, you know, looking at planets in fall, you know, there's that symbolism of sort of falling from a high place or a high point. And you know, sometimes you have to start out or get to the high place first in order to have that experience of falling. And I think, you know, you and I have discussed this more and more recently, how exultation and fall really, you know, it is an axis and I think when you have a planet, either an exultation or fall in your chart anywhere, it draws attention, not only to that planet, but to the whole axis it's on and just the whole nature of what is it to be sort of elevated, and what is it to be brought low, and that experience or sort of a deeper understanding of that dynamic, and how it plays out in human culture, I think is part of that it doesn't mean that like, you know, if a planet is in fall, that it's always you know, somewhere, you know, in the ditch, like, it's, it's a planet that maybe through its experiences, has a recognition of the extremes between, you know, being high up on a throne versus being in the ditch, and, you know, somebody like a professional athlete, you know, is a good example of that, were, being a professional athlete sort of forces you to extremes in your pursuit of your goal. And yet, your goals are necessarily limited by human physiology. And at some point, you're not going to be able to compete at that level anymore. And you're gonna have to come to terms with that and find a way to, you know, build your identity around you know, and a new way of living you know, if your whole identity was kind of built around, being the best athlete in the world that's not sustainable. So, you know, how do you still have like a positive self concept when you're no longer able to compete at the level you once were?

Kyle Pierce  1:14:23

Yeah. We have been talking a lot about that lately. And since the last episode, my Mars research on the UFC fighters got like way deeper. But this is making me think about that. I'm still working on writing the article. I can barely talk. So you know, imagine how long it takes me to write things. The but Mars and cancer and Mars and Capricorn are like the two most common Mars signs of the UFC fighters think Mars and cancer did end up. Think of a second I think there's one less Mars in Cancer than one ours in Capricorn, but But yeah, pretty much highlights that access, the fall, exultation access. And I think that like planets and fall and planets and exultation can kind of both end up in the same places, you know either starting from I believe and going to localize or going to a place from a high place or back and forth and between or just understanding all the dynamics of that, you know, so, I mean, I wouldn't get too down on on balls, and actually, it's why it's taking me so long to write because I feel like I grok something internally about about falls that I want to express, but it's really hard, hard to express or put in a way that I want to, but you know, you're in good company. I am a, you know, a cancer rising and my first house is ruled by a fallen Moon in Scorpio. Right? So I actually had similar reactions to you, when I started getting into Hellenistic astrology that I had that very same question of, Am I doomed? You know, because of this, this fallen planet? But just from talking to clients and talking to people about the charts and getting deeper into astrology, yeah, very definitively, now.

Tristan Paylor  1:16:22

Yeah, I think planets and fall can be also about, you know, climbing your way out of a fallen place. Or can be, you know, starting in a place, which, I mean, I relate to that kind of narrative as somebody who also has the Moon in Scorpio ruling my ascendant with a day chart, so we both got an out of sect, fallen planet, or ascendant.

Kyle Pierce  1:16:52

I'm fascinated by like Mars and cancer, because yeah, like the complementary other, other half or whatever.

Tristan Paylor  1:17:00

Yeah, I'm obsessed with Mars and cancers. It's like our mutual reception.

Kyle Pierce  1:17:06

I know a ton of them a bunch of my family. And yeah, I mean, I think that the finding a way out of a difficult situation or, but also, like fall fallen plants is that I was at an improv show not that long ago. And it occurred to me that who, you know, who tends to get into something like improv, it's usually people who are naturally inclined towards comedy, or being on a stage or something like improv, but often a lot of my partner is taking improv classes, a lot of them are people who have who actually really, really struggle in those areas. And they take those classes to, to, you know, get better at socializing and feeling more comfortable in their own skin or just saying what's on their mind. And often, it's those people who kind of have to build, say, planetary nature of some kind, but kind of like starting from the bottom and having to work, like build your way up in a position to know more about every detail of how, how to moon, and maybe in our case, or how to Mars. In your case. Yeah, I thought a Mercury.

Tristan Paylor  1:18:19

Yeah, I think that's a really, really good point that's making me think of when I was younger. I briefly took singing lessons. And, you know, I was really hesitant to do it at first because I'm not a good singer. And, you know, but people around me were making the point that well, that's what singing lessons are for, like, you don't start out good. Like, you know, people who just start out with a natural talent for singing don't, you know, necessarily need singing lessons, it's, you know, those of us who don't have an innate talent for us, you know, we're kind of starting from the bottom and working our way up. And life requires us to challenge ourselves in in these ways, we're not, you know, none of us are sort of like immortal gods who are just naturally gifted with every possible thing we could want or needs to do under the sun, like at some point, all of us in life are going to come up against a thing that you know, we might innately struggle with and going you know, we've got to go to our singing lessons in order to to master that thing and it doesn't mean that you can't master that thing. You still can you just have to go through the process of kind of learning from the ground up in order to master it.

Kyle Pierce  1:19:39

Well, I think that's um, thing with like a fall or detriment is that because, you know, you experience like the difficulty of that, or like the challenge of that planet, your attention is immediately drawn toward like, Okay, how do I get better at this? Yeah. And can result in people being excessively good at Something though they may have a hard time recognizing it can get that with expectations too, where the standards are so high internally that they become like disillusioned

Tristan Paylor  1:20:10

as someone with two exalted planets in my chart, one of which, you know, as I mentioned is the sun in Aries, like like you Karolina, I often find, you know, that manifests a little bit more as perfectionism in a way, because it's like, the standard I've set for myself, and that area of life is the best, I cannot do less than that, which is totally unrealistic, right? And have all

Kyle Pierce  1:20:32

the exalted planets in the world and you're still not getting

Tristan Paylor  1:20:35

perfection? No, no, nobody's nobody's going to even if you know, every planet is exalted in their chart. And everyone with exalted planets, I think, still has to calibrate that you know what that person? That's, that's the thing, like, I

Kyle Pierce  1:20:49

think we're perfect if they did accomplish it, I don't

Tristan Paylor  1:20:51

know, you and you and you wouldn't be able to relate? Yeah, you wouldn't be able to relate to themselves. So, you know, no one wants people people want to be around fallen and debilitated planets, because they can relate, you know, it's like, when I when I hear, you know, the interpretations of a planet and it's fall or detriment. I'm like, I sympathize with this protagonist, you know, and I, when I'm reading a client chart, and their ascendant ruler is like, a debilitated planet in some way. I'm just like, this is the hero I root for in a story. This is I'm invested in the outcome of this protagonist story. And, you know, there's an arc to every story too, right. So if you know you're starting from that fallen, or exiled position, you know, in a narrative format, your arc is going to take you away from that position, because you always end up somewhere different than where you started. Yeah. I think Mercury in pisces really interests me because I think it's a really good from my personal experience is a really good example of what you were just talking about Kyle with, you know, the way that debilitated planets tend to draw a lot of attention and a lot of energy, because they're noticeable, right? Like they stand out. And so they demand a lot of energy and care. And mercury, and Pisces is a mercury that I meet a lot. Both when I look up charts of, you know, public figures I'm interested in and in my personal life and the people I encounter and I have yet to meet, a encounter a mercury and Pisces person who's like, the traditional just like, you know, tripping over their words, and just like can't Mercury like most of the mercury and Pisces, people I've encountered are very eloquent and often very talented writers and very creative thinkers, and very good speakers. And, you know, often there is like, a part of their story where, you know, they felt discouraged at some point or the, you know, the way they learn or think is somehow different, or like unconventional or unusual. And so there were certain obstacles that they encountered, because of the ways in which they're thinking or speaking or learning style were unusual. But, you know, it's like, so many of the best writers and public speakers have Mercury in pisces, it's just like, all that attention, and work being poured into a particular area of life does potentially lead to mastery, even if it's challenging on on the way. You know, I can think of somebody I know with mercury and Pisces, you know, who's, who often feels like, they're not a great speaker, like, that's sort of their subjective experience that they're like, I don't really feel like I communicate well, but everyone else around them, it's like you're one of the best communicators. I know. So yeah, that can be another manifestation of these placements to where it's like, you're not actually bad at something, but you know, maybe you're holding yourself to an unrealistic standard, or you had an experience in your life, which may be totally real invalid, that made you feel inadequate, even though you're not actually be, you know, maybe some somebody, you know, said the wrong thing, or you were, you know, in a context where, you know, the way that you happen to think was just not the mainstream and so you've developed a sort of belief about yourself that you're inadequate, even though it's not true.

Kyle Pierce  1:24:33

Yet, that's a great point because, um, the more I talk to people about their charts, that that ends up being it's maybe your experience of that planet that is maybe informed by what could have been just like a one time incident early on, when it was very formative, that you know, like Mercury in pisces, like you weren't heard or weren't listened to, or people didn't want to pay attention to you or or that you weren't good at talking, or maybe you did struggle with, with speaking in some way. Like you're saying, you're gonna put a lot of energy in finding a way to either improve that or find an alternative way of expressing it. A lot of writers, you know, maybe they struggle with intrapersonal talking or interpersonal communication sometimes, and they maybe go to writing where they can, like, take their time to craft their sentences in a way that they can't, you know, when they're, in the moment, you know, speaking to somebody in front of them. So just difficulty place planet, it's like having to master a dichotomy of some kind, or find a way to integrate, you know, two seemingly disparate principles. Find a solution to something and think that that is what you know, ends up resulting a lot of like, creative solutions.

Tristan Paylor  1:25:56

Oh, yeah, like creativity is, is my number one key word for planets and fallen detriment. And the more of them you have, you know, the greater the creative potential in the chart, because, you know, creativity comes from, you know, having to come up with novel solutions to problems. Yeah. And, you know, having to work in environments where, you know, the usual ways of doing things don't work. I think with with planets in fall and detriment as well, they can symbolize difficulty finding the right context to be expressed in now, I've been, you know, thinking about Mars and cancer, right on the ascendant there. And how, you know, Mars in particular, is, as a planet, regardless of what sign it's in. Its energy isn't appropriate. In every circumstance, it's a really good example of a planet that is just not always the appropriate response. So you know, I think of Mars in detriment or fall, and I reminded of that moment in The Simpsons, there's that episode of The Simpsons where Homer gets a gun. And there's that moment where he says, Watch me turn on the TV, and he just like, shoots the TV on you, Marie turns off the lights by shooting off the light bulbs, and it's just like not now Mars, like, this isn't the right context for this sort of behavior. There is, you know, possibly a context for this kind of behavior, but it is not here. And there aren't a lot of contexts where that kind of energy is actually appropriate. And I think Mars in fall or detriment might struggle with that a little bit where it's like, Mars in Cancer has something very valuable to offer. But what it has to offer is like maybe a little niche in a way, like it needs to find an appropriate venue, where it kind of fits the situation and it may be an experience of you know, just having, you know, a challenge as far as as finding a place where you know, your particular talents fit or service. Or like having to be creative. Another another Mars in Cancer image I always have is the droid IG 11 in the Mandalorian, who starts off as an assassin droid. Oh, I don't want to I don't want to spoil it for you. But he starts off as an assassin droid. And at some point over the course of the show, he's reprogrammed into a nanny droid. So you know, he's still an assassin, like, he's still a total badass. But his motives have been changed to you know, protecting a baby, instead of, you know, working for, you know, whoever was hiring him to do whatever terrible job. So it's like that, to me. That's Mars in Cancer, where it's like, how does Mars Express Mars? In the context of cancer, that's going to be tricky to figure out how to do that in a way that is constructive. But it can be done. It just requires a little bit of creative thinking to figure out, you know, how do we make this work in this context?

Kyle Pierce  1:29:26

Yeah, absolutely. I do want to end up talking about like the actually, technically very nice things that are happening in your chart.

Tristan Paylor  1:29:35

Yes, there are a lot of them. Yeah, a lot of nice things in this chart.

Kyle Pierce  1:29:40

Yeah. Part of that involves that. You know, Mars has a lot of reception with planets in signs that Mars is comfortable in. I mean, there's kind of like there's like connections to Mars, Mars, having outlets or Mars having training or something on Mars having a I like outlets actually. And I want to go back into my data but one of my favorite UFC fighter charts was was like a Mars in Cancer with Mars opposing Uranus in Capricorn, which is science, exultation, it was a trine Pluto. And I believe Venus was an Aries as well. Just like giving like Mars, like all the Mars tools, to kind of like what you were saying, like, it's like finding a way to express that, appropriately, is often very hard, usually Mars and cancer. Like, the feelings get hurt very often, easily. There's a sensitivity there. And Mars is not, you know, used to giving a, an F about what other people think. And it just wants to do its thing. It's its job done. accomplish its mission.

Tristan Paylor  1:30:55

You know, doing it's not, you know, I don't have time to worry about how other people are going to react to this. And so, you know, in labor or cancer, those are signs where, you know, you have to consider what other people might think or what other people might feel before you act. And Mars is not, that's not what comes naturally to Mars at all.

Kyle Pierce  1:31:14

Yeah. And so, I mean, the reactions can be extreme in different directions, you know, so maybe you'd have to, like talk to somebody, you know, with any given placement, but particularly, like, more extreme placements like that, to see what their particular experiences with it. But, um, that's my thought. My thought, you know, I don't have a follow on Mercury, but I feel like it is something different was on that excess.

Tristan Paylor  1:31:46

And I guess, you know, that's sometimes the advantage there is that if, if Mercury has fallen, you're more inclined to want to do something about it.

Kyle Pierce  1:31:55

Yeah, I mean, I want to do something about it, but it's almost like planets in detriment or in fall. It's like they have very obvious sightlines to, to where they do well, yeah. No. Oh, I can see the place that that I do. Well, it's right there across the golf, you know, and I want to traverse that and get there. But when, you know, I make a paragon grim planet, maybe worse, I don't know. Like, just kind of like, I just don't, I don't know what the solution is. I don't know what the,

Tristan Paylor  1:32:24

like, I can't see where I'm supposed to be or like, Where would be a good place for me to go? Yeah, no idea. I do feel like, you know, to jump into some of the, the more traditionally nice things in this chart. Mars is being bonafide by Venus. Venus is in Aries in the 10th house. And Mars is in cancer in the first so Venus is earlier in zodiacal order and squaring Mars, which is a good thing for Mars. And they are both sect mates, you know, they're both night planets. So you know, it's kind of nice that Mars is getting a boost from its sect mate. And of course, Venus is in Aries Mars's sign. So they're, you know, there's some some sympathy and understanding there. So that is actually like a really cool relationship that, you know, potentially softens the harder edges of Mars. And because you know, Venus is in Aries, like Venus is in Mars is domicile. So you know, Venus in a way can kind of, you know, if Mars is missing stuff at home, like man, in order to do my job, I really need this thing. But I don't have it here because I'm in this weird place in cancer where nothing makes sense to me. And Venus is like, well, I've got you I can you know, I'm in your house right now. Let me know what you need. And Venus will send what Mars Needs, you know, to make things work in cancer. So that that aspect really, really changes the interpretation of Mars and cancer on the ascendant were like, yeah, it's a little unusual. It's a little challenging, but Mars is getting, you know, really valuable support from back at home.

Kyle Pierce  1:34:13

I think one thing that I like, and this may seem counterintuitive at first, but Venus is retrograde in Carolyn's chart and what I actually like about that, is that it I find it I think that it increases the affinity between Venus and Mars. Not that Venus turns into Mars when it's retrograde. But Venus is it's about like champ challenging consensus to some degree kind of going against consensus for the sake of creating better you know, more unity and a sense of so like, it's a much more going against the grain sort of Venus. I like to think of like people with like, very offbeat, eccentric fashion style. Think I've seen Venus retrograde is in fashion designers. But as opposed to like unifying and like blending in and being the same as everyone else, Venus retrograde just like like wants to create new different using the fashion analogy, like a new fashion new style, you know, that challenges and goes against what has already existed. Venus is often potentially very creative

Tristan Paylor  1:35:22

when it's retrograde. I really like that,

Kyle Pierce  1:35:26

such as trying to create peace and harmony and you know, make things fit nicely together. It's like, let's, let's try that, you know, that leopard skin? That leopard print jacket with the my tie dye leggings. See how that goes? Oh, you don't like it? Well, I like it. And in 10 years, it's gonna be what's cool. It's gonna be what's in because I'm concerned. So

Tristan Paylor  1:35:53

I love the idea of Venus retrograde connecting with fashion design, because a big part of fashion is recycling old fashions like at some point, yeah, whatever was cool a few decades later becomes retro, and like there's a new spin on it. And that is now what is cool. So I feel like there's a little bit of that reaching back into the past to come up with something new. That Venus retrograde in Aries might you know, because Venus in a cardinal sign and you know, forward thinking sign like Aries is going to want to do something that's you know, never been seen before set a trend or whatever and a retrograde is gonna look back into the past and look at like, Okay, what worked in the past what was cool then, and how can I kind of remix this for the present era?

Kyle Pierce  1:36:43

Again, Venus has that sorry.

Tristan Paylor  1:36:44

Oh, just you got me thinking about, you know, Venus's sort of primary function is to unify and create peace. And I actually gave a sermon about this subject once. You know, I used to I used to do a little bit of work in church ministry and a past life you know, before I became a heathen to heretic whatever, I

Kyle Pierce  1:37:15

would love to hear you give a sermon epic we should have a segment of the show where interesting gives a sermon, astrology sermon.

Tristan Paylor  1:37:23

Oh, maybe that's I mean, I think astrology has become sort of that outlet for me. Because you know, I'm not I'm no longer Christian and no longer involved in the church. But a lot of the work I did for the church was very fulfilling and so astrology lets me kind of do some of that

Kyle Pierce  1:37:38

stuff is gonna change the way I listen to you.

Tristan Paylor  1:37:43

Be like, listening to the preacher.

Kyle Pierce  1:37:47

Yeah, I'm gonna, nobody will be able to see me but just gonna have my hands raised. My eyes closed. Me looking up at the sky. Interesting talk because Christian is connecting me with the Lord.

Tristan Paylor  1:38:02

Now I'm now in connecting people with the stars, I guess in an animistic sense instead of it's you know, I relevant to me. Yeah. So I gave are actually up there. They I know you can actually see them. It's nice. It's yeah, it's like that George Carlin bit about sun worship, you know, you can actually see the sun. Yeah, actually, like, you can literally prove that it, you know, allows life on Earth. So it makes sense to worship. Sorry, I don't I don't want to offend any listeners of various religious persuasions. But it's I know it's true if you if the trouble right with religion is that whatever your position is, it contradicts somebody else's position. And so then what do you do? Anyway, I

Kyle Pierce  1:38:45

gave make fun of it as much as I do.

Tristan Paylor  1:38:49

I, you know, and I still like I actually had a really good time with the church, I was involved in really progressive, rebellious in a good way kinds of churches. So you know, I still really appreciate that time. But anyway, I gave a sermon about that. There's a famous passage in the Gospels. That, you know, is very controversial, where Jesus says, Do you think I came on I came to earth, to create peace, I didn't come to bring peace but a sword. Essentially, like I've come to bring strife and I gave a whole sermon about the concept of, of peace and how there is a difference between there's sort of two different kinds of peace. You know, there's the peace that comes as the result of ignoring our problems and ignoring injustices and just refusing to rock the boat. You know, when you know something is wrong. You just don't you just tow the party line, you don't do anything about it, and the kind of peace that comes from actually having justice and, you know, in order to get that Peace, you actually have to create a disturbance first. And the example that I used in my sermon was, so I'm also a big hockey fan. And several years ago, Braden Holtby. One, the Stanley Cup with the Washington Capitals. And Trump was president at the time. And it is a tradition for Stanley Cup winning hockey teams to visit the White House and visit the president. And Braden Holtby was the goalie for the Washington Capitals, and he refused to go. And this was a big deal, because most of the teams still went, a couple of players on the team refused to go because they were like, I don't, you know, I don't want to go down in history being seen, you know, photographed with Donald Trump who's responsible for all these horrible things. But like, hockey culture is very conservative, not just like, in a political sense, but in the sense that like, team, the team comes first before the individual. And it's all about sort of like conserving the tradition, and not rocking the boat and not deviating from your team, like being you know, too much of an individual celebrity is also kind of discouraged, or like showing too much personality, because it's taking attention away from the team and putting it on an individual. So it's like a really, you know, he's breaking away from this very sort of unified, you know, I feel like this is sort of the shadow side of Venus, where it's like, in order for this team to remain cohesive, and everyone to get along, and like each other, you know, we can't do anything divisive. And he made a decision to stand by his principles, and do something divisive. And you know, and ultimately, the team ended up supporting him and everything was fine, but I feel like that's, that's sort of the meaning of, of Venus. And Aries, to me is like, in order to get to peace, we need to actually sometimes deviate from the group mentality, we sometimes have to do or say things that are not nice that ruffle feathers. And that like supportive relationship between this retrograde Venus in Aries and Mars in Cancer, I think really illustrates that kind of, you know, understanding of the world, you know, and the willingness to actually say, like I am, I am going to do something that, you know, especially since Venus is right up there in the 10th house, you know, pretty visible I mean, is it under the beams or it's sort of on the border line there? I think it's still pretty visible.

Kyle Pierce  1:42:55

Mammals don't have that, though. Exalted. Yes. It's like, Venus maybe can't be seen it by itself. Like it has to be like plants under the beams to some degree, it's like the sun sort of takes over, or they like they have to express themselves through the sun.

Tristan Paylor  1:43:11

Yeah, but that's not the worst sign you could express yourself through great sun. I mean, it's a heroic Sun too. So it is kind of like being willing to take a risk, you know, in order to do what is right, being willing to take a risk for the sake of the things that Venus stands for, which is, you know, a world in which people enjoy peace and harmony and, you know, enjoy things that are fun and pleasurable, and, you know, have the leisure time and we can't have something that's unpopular. Yeah. We can't have any of those things without actual justice, you know,

Kyle Pierce  1:43:47

ya know, retrograde means makes you think of specifically what your chart currently on this makes me think of like the tyranny of the majority, which democracies run into, right when, you know, we may all agree on a law. But that law is not just that laws broken or that law is actually creating strife and conflict. Think like Venus retrograde is, you know, that's when Venus retrograde steps in is like now, this is a this may be popular, but this is not good. This is not. This is actually creating more strife and disharmony. Yeah. And I feel like that combination, Mars and cancer. Be like that's the important part of your life is maybe having to advocate for or say the unpopular thing. For the sake of sick of being, you know, right. Right.

Tristan Paylor  1:44:54

But the secret lair prodution Yeah, yeah, Phoenician principles, which are all like now Things You know, like Venus wants nice things.

Kyle Pierce  1:45:02

Yeah. I think it's Venus like makes Mars a lot more well intentioned overall, you know, not that can't Yeah, by itself. But yeah, I in that. I mean, that can be a very uncomfortable position to be in, though to Yes. To be, you know, sing the things that other people don't want to hear.

Tristan Paylor  1:45:20

But you know, you do have that exalted sun in the 10th. And you also have that opposition from Jupiter to help perhaps smooth that over and you know, make the things that you want to say. More resonant? Yeah, it's a very I that caught my eye immediately. So I was like, Okay, well, Venus is in detriment here but also has reception with Jupiter, which is in Venus's sign of Libra. So Venus and Jupiter have an understanding and Jupiter is able much like, you know, Venus is kind of able to send Mars things from home that Mars might need. Jupiter is in a similar position here where Jupiter is, you know, in Venus's house, and Jupiter's nature is to want to help and I think the nature of an opposition with genetics involved is actually stabilizing, because the opposition is the aspect of Saturn and so it has a sort of, you know, stuckness or rigidity to it, it tends to slow things down. But when you're talking about benefics you know, I think that's, that's a more pleasant potential manifestation of that kind of like, slow steady energy. It's been, you know, my experience with I have Jupiter very loosely opposing my Moon in Scorpio. And I sometimes feel like that's my saving grace, you know, or like, my Moon in Scorpio tends to go to extremes but there's, you know, sweet, gentle Jupiter and Taurus just sort of, like, take a moment. And, you know, offers that kind of, you know, like that, that strong, steady hand on your shoulder that kind of studies you and allows you to center yourself before you react. I think you know, Jupiter can offer some of that to Venus, and also Jupiter happens to be in the sign of Libra, which is all about justice. So you know, maybe some of that symbolism is being repeated here. Yeah, of you know, being being good. And, you know, you're talking about the law and, you know, laws can be popularly agreed on but still be unjust or corrupt. And Jupiter is the law. And Jupiter in Libra is assessing and judging whether or not laws are fair,

Kyle Pierce  1:47:39

yeah. Yeah, it's like Venus has, you know, has a planet in Libra. And it's Jupiter. Jupiter, is a good role model, you know, Venus, like, knows that it's by choice so much, but it's like Venus knows how to be Venus. If it needs to be reimagined, like you're able to be agreeable and all that when you when you need to be, but it's maybe not your inclination, some degree or maybe not. What you need to do to maybe solve that Grand Cross, I could see, like, I don't know if I'd be interested in maybe how, to what degree some seems like this might have played out for jet as well as, like, I don't know, like with a Grand Cross, it's like the, because there's so much energy being fed into, into that aspect pattern. It's like, you get, like, flow with it to some degree. You have to kind of demanding an outlet. I guess, you know, thinking about like Mars, like, on the ascendant in the first. And because it's like, usually, like the out of sect. malefic is something you know, is like, something that you want to like, contain or manage or curtail, sort of, like instinctively be like, I don't know. speaks to me more as like, I don't know, it's like something about difficulties around self expression to some degree, like finding courage to be different.

Tristan Paylor  1:49:06

Yeah, that's a good feeling. It's a good sort of key phrase for Mars and cancer in the first house is, you know, having the courage to stand out in some way. And I don't know it's, it's interesting, you know, as somebody with a fallen out of SEC planet ruling, my first I remember, you know, back in my online dating days in the distant past, there was a match question on OKCupid, the dating site, which is, you know, what, would you rather be normal or weird? And it always made me pause. Because I am very much weird, and I've spent my whole life being told in no uncertain terms that that is what I am by everyone around me, but I often kind of resent being weird and I often think about how much easier my life would be If I didn't stand out, and you know, I go through phases of kind of trying to present myself in a way that makes me stand out less. And it just, I just can't keep it up. And it's frustrating because it's like, I don't I'm not trying to get attention by being weird. This isn't some, like, you know, narcissistic thing, I just, I just want to be myself and be left alone. Like, I don't actually want people making comments about me. But, you know, so like, if if I were just if I just had more normal tastes and a more normal, more normal interests and more, you know, if I did what was expected of me, my life would go much smoother and I wouldn't draw attention to myself and I'd be able to fly under the radar. But for some reason, it's just my nature. Yeah. And I think you know, making peace with you know, I'm probably never gonna have a quote unquote, normal life is you know, sort of part of my journey right now as being at peace with that. And I don't know Karolina, if you can relate to that at all. But you know, if you can maybe that's maybe that's part of your Mars in Cancer on the ascendant journey to is just like being okay, with, with being different, and, you know, standing out for who you are, and what makes you unique, even if you know, that's sometimes challenging or, you know, results in in attention or reactions that you'd rather not deal with.

Kyle Pierce  1:51:35

No, I think, well, it's something that you inherently both have. So the sun, exalted in the 10th. But just like the sun in the 10th, in general, it's like, they're, like, you can't help but like, attract attention. Yeah, it's not you know, whether you want it or not, it's kind of like they're like a, you're just going to tend to draw more attention, I think with some attempt.

Tristan Paylor  1:51:59

Yeah. And an Aries is just as the sun everything sort of the Sun is magnetic, and it's the brightest thing there is, everyone is looking at it, everyone's revolving around it, you kinda, you kind of can't escape it. Now what occurs is the gift and the curse of the Exalted son is just like not not being able to kind of go anywhere on notice. It's, it's not it's not a stealthy placement.

Kyle Pierce  1:52:25

Yeah. Whether you want to be looked at or not. Yeah, visibility is sort of unavoidable. And yeah, I think for you, Kristen, with the moon Scorpio, and for you, Karolina with the moon in the fourth house is, you know, there's going to be a tendency more towards preferring privacy preferring not wanting to have all the attention, I would think for you clearly and with, I don't know, being compelled or impelled to challenge the status quo, he'd be having to reconcile getting attention for it to be accepting the attention. And doing it any way is part of the journey.

Tristan Paylor  1:53:05

Or maybe, you know, finding the spaces where where the attention makes sense. Yeah. Where it's received. Well, that's another sort of challenge is, you know, finding Where's where's the right space for me to shine where, you know, it's not making unreasonable demands of me. Yeah. Well, yeah, that the Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Kyle Pierce  1:53:27

I was just gonna add, part of what's positive, though, about just Mars in Cancer is that it's the ruler of the 10th. And the fifth, you know, it's being on your ascendant. While it does have like, the out of sect, Mars job, it's also you know, those are powerful, more positive houses, and to have that clarity on your Ascendant is, you know, because with a traditionally would be called, like, eminence, you know,

Tristan Paylor  1:53:53

yeah, it's bringing, bringing the significations of the fifth and the 10th houses into the first house, you know, where they're sort of part of your, your identity and where you have a lot of, you know, potential a lot of agency over those topics. And they're very visible to other people. I mean, I having the fifth house, you know, being very visible to people. I mean, that can be fun, you know, maybe or maybe you're really fun to hang out with at a party.

Kyle Pierce  1:54:20

Yeah, I mean, well, I guess it's not a Come on. I don't know you. Like sex appeal do?

Tristan Paylor  1:54:29

Yeah, this is true that like sort of unusual Sex House sucks. Yeah, like unusual sex appeal. The Mars maltreating the Moon and Jupiter. meno is, you know, one of the more sort of challenging aspects in the chart and part of that Grand Cross where Mars in Cancer is overcoming Jupiter, and the moon in the fourth house in Libra. And I think maybe that is For a repetition of some of the themes of, you know, a bit of the tension between the the 10th house and the fourth house, potentially, where, you know, the moon, in the fourth house, you know, wants privacy and the Moon in Libra wants peace. You know, it doesn't, doesn't want to deal with, you know, extreme situations or, you know, extreme people or conflict or fighting or arguments or any of that kind of stuff, it just wants everything to go smoothly and you know, wants to be able to relax. And you know, Mars being in this very visible part of the chart, maybe, you know, is another illustration of some potential tension there between the desire for privacy and the desire for, you know, things on a social level to just kind of go easily and nicely without disagreements, and then, you know, this Mars in the first house that's just like, No, we need, we need to, you know, say things that people don't want to hear. And you know, we're going to stand out in a really visible way. So there's too, you know, and it's like, we were talking about the Grand Cross and kind of competing drives or impulses, like those are two potential competing impulses in this chart, and Mars is going to have a bit of a tendency to get the upper hand, but there's also again, reception because the moon is in, or Mars is in the moon's sign. So that also like potentially softens the tension there and creates more potential for compromise between those two areas of life.

Kyle Pierce  1:56:44

But with Mars, overcoming those, those fourth house planets, sort of like doing some damage to like the privacy even, you know, like, yeah, say the things that people don't want to hear is maybe just like, part of like, what you're called to do to some degree, maybe at some point and have like, your, your sort of privacy disturbed by that or? Yeah, that feels like mean, just having to do something that it's like a hard choice, or I don't know, like, like me wanting to keep the peace, like the Venus. But you know, Venus is also like, now we got challenged consensus. So,

Tristan Paylor  1:57:23

yes, I see where you're coming from, and it's making me think about situation, you know, an example from my own life right now. Like the the fourth house, in Carolina's chart is, is a little mixed, you know, it's a little confusing, because you've got to benefic of the second favor, that being Jupiter in the fourth house, and you know, in a day chart, Jupiter is traditionally the most positive planet and so where Jupiter is located, should generally you know, indicate where things tend to go well and go easily and be pleasant and enjoyable, like, you know, potentially some of the most fulfilling or enjoyable topics of life will be found where Jupiter is, but you know, Jupiter is also retrograde and in sort of a complicated, you know, maltreatment with Mars, but there's also like, some reception there by exaltation, because cancer is Jupiter's exaltation. But, you know, Mars doesn't really understand Libra very well. So, you know, there's, there's a little bit of potential for relating to each other here. But I'd still say overall, it's quite a tense relationship between Mars and Jupiter. So yeah, it's like in in theory, you know, home and family should be like, some of the most enjoyable experiences in this chart. And then, you know, Mars is kind of getting in there and being like, I want to cause problems. But, you know, I don't I don't actually really think of it as far as causing problems and I think that's a lesson I'm learning right now. As someone who also has cancer rising and has a Libra fourth house like Karolina does. I am in a Mars year, as is Karolina actually, I checked, we're both fifth house we're both having Mars years. And so Mars is and Kyle too. So like all three of us, really, we're all in the same boat here where Mars risings with Mars, transiting the fourth Mars Sun, Mars in detriment transiting the fourth house.

Kyle Pierce  1:59:40

Actually my Solar Return chart this year, looks a lot like Karolina say Mars Exactly. On my ascendant for celebrity. Return to the minute. Oh, that's interesting. I actually got pulled over the next day, the day after my birthday because my license was expired for one day had been expired for one day and I got it Legal hell. But you know, Mars also rules my tongue started the podcast or two podcasts actually this year. So you take the good with the bad.

Tristan Paylor  2:00:08

Oh, that's that's the thing, right is that the mill? The mill ethics represent extremes. And I think, you know, we tend to think of the mill ethics as representing all the bad stuff, forgetting that extremes mean that there is extreme good and extreme bad. And I mean, that's certainly been my experience of my Mars years so far is it's a roller coaster, where it's like absolute euphoria, everything's going well, tons of opportunities are being handed to you. And then the worst of the worst, everything is falling apart, and then we go back up. It's, I think, maybe why, you know, people are sometimes sometimes express disappointment about Jupiter transits and that's like, Well, if the time of your life when Jupiter was making that transit was really genuinely Jupiter re, it probably would have just gone by without any fanfare, because now it's like, easy and things come naturally. And, you know, it's the the Mars energy that's like, wow, that was really amazing. And then that was really terrible, sort of, like all at once, or whatever.

Kyle Pierce  2:01:08

Like, Jupiter might pass you the ball, but you still got to run with it.

Tristan Paylor  2:01:11

Yeah. But yeah, the sort of experience I'm having with Mars, and Libra, transiting my fourth house right now is I've got like, weird family stuff going on. And it has, you know, I guess in my life, I've been very characteristically a, you know, Venus ruled fourth house kind of person where my approach to family is, you know, I'm I just tried to be relaxed and live or let live and just kind of end up ignoring a lot of problems and not asserting myself. And, you know, just sort of being agreeable in situations where I should actually be standing up for myself. But it's been the kind of case where I've been able to get away with that for a long time. And now that Mars is going through my fourth house, I'm going through a situation where it's sort of like, oh, I can't ignore this anymore. There. There's actually like, serious dysfunction here. And, you know, I think that can be one of the qualities of Mars where, you know, maybe the Moon and Jupiter in Libra and Carolina's fourth house, you know, they just want to be kind of live and let live when it comes to issues at home. You know, whether those are physical issues with like, the actual house or their dynamics within a family or what have you any any sort of fourth house topics, they're going to be a little more laid back about it. And, you know, sometimes being laid back about things causes us to miss problems until they've been kind of building for so long that it becomes really hard to change them and Mars is kind of the energy that we need to shake us out of those ruts a little bit.

Kyle Pierce  2:03:00

Actually, I think it's funny that Justin had been talking about this a lot since Mars got into Libra, but both having just kind of like annoying like family problems sort of come up as Mars transits the fourth house in a Mars ruled perfection year I'd be really curious actually hope that you maybe let us know Karolina. If you're having annoying family problems.

Tristan Paylor  2:03:25

or annoying like house problems like Yeah, I think when Keith and I first moved in my partner and I first moved into our new house, we actually have a well which is in mundane astrology wells are ruled by the fourth house. And I think Mars was going through his fourth house. And the well bro you know, and I feel like it's not it's not it's it's easy to tell a narrative where it's like, oh, Mars is coming in fucking things up, but it's actually not that like Mars is antagonizing so much as Mars is pointing out that like, hey, this thing's been breaking down for a really long time. And if you just put like a little bit too much pressure on it right now, it's going to utterly collapse. So like you now are forced to address it.

Kyle Pierce  2:04:15

Yeah, yeah. Do some work. Do some Mars.

Tristan Paylor  2:04:18

Yeah, you got to do the Mars Mars work, which is, you know, the the work to sort of maintain a I guess adequate level. It's like fixing your well, or, you know, dealing with annoying annoying family members.

Kyle Pierce  2:04:35

Yeah, I'm just one. There's another chart thing I wanted to point out. I find interesting. Is Mercury is in Pisces, in the ninth house. Um, it's actually has the Anisha with Jupiter and Venus. It's within what is that? It's a couple of degrees off, but it's like within what I would call the range of the Anisha. So it's like kind of being received by Jupiter through that. And Tisha, for listeners unfamiliar with Anisha has to do with the equinox all points, right? So like the Pisces, Aries cusp, the Virgo, Libra cusp, the Capricorn Sagittarius cups and the Gemini cancer, cusp. And when you think of like the planets being able to see each other by a traditional aspect, you know, it's one form of affinity. But the Anisha was another form of affinity, another way for planets to to interact with each other, as opposed to just being like in a version because they have the same distance away from the solstice points. I can never remember what to call those things.

Tristan Paylor  2:05:51

But Equinox points because I think a solstice Yeah, one is contour and Tisha is Solstice points. I think, if I'm remembering this correctly, we have the symbolism has to do with like, having the same amount of light that's that's what gives them affinity.

Kyle Pierce  2:06:09

Yeah, so there's like a relationship with the planets kind of like mitigated diversion. But Mercury is like in this kind of interesting position to like, because mercury is, you know, the translator to sort of be a voice for those, those two planets and it's in a applying trine with Mars on the ascendant. So I don't know if you do any kind of writing or like philosophical or like spiritual activities, like ninth house activities.

Tristan Paylor  2:06:38

Astrologer ology Yeah. Mercury is the planet of astrology in the house of astrology in your chart, Karolina so HINT HINT nudge nudge on Mercury

Kyle Pierce  2:06:47

is to grade Mercury Mars is going to be gather so maybe maybe that's why you wanted to reach out to astrology going for like two hours now two and a half hours coincides and he reaching out to a couple astrologers. But yeah, I don't know if you do any writing, but that could be a really good way of and I always like my mind jumps to remediation, or just like ways to like a positive ways to like, you know, without a chart writing. gonna write something controversial or, you know, if you have like big opinions, right? Um,

Tristan Paylor  2:07:29

one one last little thing I wanted to point out as an interesting mitigating factor in this chart. Before I actually attempt to answer the question properly, and not just sit here and analyze curliness turn on night, which is proving to be a really fun exercise. Yeah, thank you for sharing.

Kyle Pierce  2:07:50

I mean, I won't be dismissive of, you know, some of the challenges that can be described in a chart, but that can be what is nice about astrology too, is that you know, sort of look at the fun side of things too.

Tristan Paylor  2:08:04

Yeah, I think that's sorry, go ahead. You

Kyle Pierce  2:08:07

go ahead. I was thinking you

Tristan Paylor  2:08:11

know, you know, we're gonna we're gonna channel the energy or like, you know, Venus in Aries, where it's like, I'm going to be aggressively polite. Go first. No, absolutely. I will kill you if you don't go first.

Kyle Pierce  2:08:29

I like that

Tristan Paylor  2:08:30

Venus in Aries. And Karolina is chart or, you know, Mars transiting through Libra. Right now. We're channeling the energy of one or both of them. Venus in in Aries in Carolina's chart is actually in its own term. So not only for those unfamiliar with the subdivisions of the zodiac signs, there are various methods of dividing the zodiac signs into smaller sections that also have symbolic meaning. And term or bound is a really ancient one where you know, each zodiac sign is kind of unevenly divided. And each section is ruled by its own planet. So in curliness chart, Venus at eight degrees of Aries is in its own bound, or term. And one way to interpret this is it's a type of essential dignity. And it's kind of like Venus is in you know, the best room in the house. So Venus is in Mars's house because it's an Aries which is an awkward place for Venus to find itself. But Venus at least has the nicest room in Mars's house, which, you know, gives it a little bit of a boost and, you know, because it's also in the overcoming position over Mars. It you know, has little Little bit of power so you know I kind of think of this as like she's a guest in Mars's house and Mars is kind of making his best effort to give her a space of her own where she can be comfortable even though she's so far from her actual home so it's like you know Venus can have the most of Venus the room and Mars his house and can kind of make some demands of Mars like, I don't really like the food here. You know, I I'm tired of eating red meat and drinking whiskey like I you know, want some souffle or whatever, you know, Venus would want to eat and can kind of, you know, get get a little bit of demand a little bit of room service from Mars here.

Kyle Pierce  2:10:46

No. I actually, I love this. I'm just realizing, remember this because I wrote an article on it was the lunation. This year, March 28. The Full Moon in Libra. It was when Venus was Cassini, the sun in Aries and opposing exactly the Moon in Libra at the exact same degree in your chart, currently no. Eight degrees when it was in its own bound. It's actually interesting that that happened and it would have been a Venus rule year. So I'm wondering if something interesting might happen for you. March 28 of 2021 just figuring this out, so I don't I don't have like an off the cuff interpretation for that. But I feel like I'm giving Karolina a lot of homework. Sorry. But if I really want to know now, you want to shoot us an email or something? Anything happened, like around the end of March? Because that full moon is interesting. And I found it I thought it was a really interesting position for Venus to be in in its own term and then Cassini lithium exalted sun. Yeah, anyway, yeah. The term the Venus is in the gives like he's like better equipped, you know, actually, I feel like it's a really good position for a retrograde Venus in Aries to be in, like where it has, like all the tools to do its job, because it is like a little more of a challenger. And it has, you know, access to the the Venus section of the arsenal.

Tristan Paylor  2:12:29

Hmm. Yeah, it's like, you know, it's still challenging placement, fundamentally, but ultimately also has access to resources, they're going to enable it to meet those challenges. Yeah. In terms of, you know, dealing with difficult aspects, which is one of the questions, Karolina asked, you know, how do you react to challenging aspect panic or panic Freako has my dog is doing right now. Ketsu took your injunction to panic very seriously. My dog also has a, a moon Mars square in his chart. And he's very, very good at.

Kyle Pierce  2:13:10

Oh, yeah, that's like one of the few things we don't have in common in our charts. You don't have the moon Mars square?

Tristan Paylor  2:13:16

No, no, I still get panic moon because it's in a Mars sign. But the Moon and Mars are sextile in my chart. So that's a little. I don't know, I guess I know how to manage my panic when it happens. Hopefully, maybe that's because more because that's what it means. Justified panic,

Kyle Pierce  2:13:37

unjustified? No, or more. Exactly. Fine.

Tristan Paylor  2:13:40

All right, I see what you're saying.

Kyle Pierce  2:13:43

Everything's sextile Interesting. Okay.

Tristan Paylor  2:13:48

One piece of advice for dealing with any sort of contradiction or, you know, two impulses or two areas of life that you know, require some kind of reconciliation or compromise is to give them a common goal. So, you know, if the planets involved in a challenging aspect, share some kind of goal in common, they're more likely to work together in spite of their differences. So just kind of looking at your chart for examples. You know, Mars and the Moon are both connected to your first house because your first house is ruled by the moon. And Mars is, you know, right there on the ascendant. So, you know, both of these planets, in a sense, are being tasked with helping you to establish a really strong sense of individual identity. You know, helping you to cultivate self esteem, that kind of thing. And, you know, if you're able to kind of get those two Um, impulses working together towards, you know, sort of the common goal of like a healthy, strong sense of identity. You know, that can be a way of reconciling those.

Kyle Pierce  2:15:14

Yeah, I mean, so how to react would be not to do what I said earlier, because I was joking. But yeah, don't panic, because I do think there's a lot of things that you and I, and everyone can do that already do do that work with those difficult aspects. But I mean, I guess you gotta like take it on a case by case basis, because it's like the, I tend to think that the aspect in the chart the planets involved in everything can describe, you know, a problem, it also kind of has like the, the solution sort of built into it too. I don't find that most things, in certain things are irreconcilable, like, I don't know, probably not going to enjoy like coffee beans, and your peanut butter and jelly, or something. But usually, there are ways that you can integrate something like a square, or something that kind of points to a dichotomy here, or something that seems, you know, a conflict. But there's also you know, I'm not a psychologist can do, you know, diagnose anything, but read a lot about psychology and a lot of the way that it's approached, you know, it's not so much about fixing, you know, what's wrong with you. It's not really what it's about, it's about no forgiving yourself for not being perfect for not having all exalted planets that are all trying and sextile to each other. Like, you know, we're all imperfect creatures. And it's also kind of what makes us interesting and unique, and how we react to challenges and the creative ways that we find to solve those problems. I don't know, sometimes I like to look at like some, like difficult placements is like, a quest or something like, a problem that I had been tasked to solve. Like. I don't know that I think that's what's cool about astrology is that you get the symbolic framework for looking at things and you can use that in a very negative way. And you can, you can play with that and find, you know, ways to re to tell the story differently. This strategy is great, because it like it calls attention to tendencies that you may already be aware of, but maybe puts them into a context, it's like easier to identify, and potentially makes it easier to work with, because you can actually have a language to describe it.

Tristan Paylor  2:18:06

I really, I really liked that about how, you know, there are different ways to tell the story. Astrology gives you different ways of telling your story. And you can look at it through many different from many different perspectives. You know, one of my pieces of advice for navigating challenging placements is having a sense of humor. Okay, now, I want to Kyle's pet charts that we discussed on a recent episode, as Will Ferrell who has you know, a lot of debilitated planets in his chart. And, you know, they are expressed through comedy where it's like, there's an incongruence at two planets and follow detriment. And that kind of incongruency like something being in a place where it's not supposed to be is the core of humor. You know, so finding, finding a way to express those things through humor is his one is one way, that's one perspective, you can take but of course, you know, like, I also appreciated what you were saying earlier, you know, we were talking about this being a fun chart to analyze, but you know, not wanting to sound dismissive, because another perspective, you can take on your chart, like you can take the perspective on your chart of, you know, this is fun, and, you know, I can kind of see the humor in my life using this framework, but you can also take the perspective that, you know, I can see some of the hardest things that have happened in my life in my chart, right? So depending on the perspective you're looking at your chart from, and I certainly, you know, don't want to suggest that, you know, life is just all fun and games and that's, you know, the best way to look at your chart sometimes. You will find that, you know, the symbolism in your chart can say something about a particularly difficult situation that happened in your life. That's become a really important or influential part of your story. And you know, Looking at the astrology more seriously, and using it to help you tell the story of some of the harder things that have happened in your life can also be healing. And, you know, give you a language for talking about them and, you know, figuring out how they fit into your life story in a meaningful way. You know, and like I was saying, there's some things in life that are just irreconcilable. But there are some things in life that are difficult, but we're able to sort of find meaning in them, regardless, and the symbols of astrology are really rich for helping us to find meaning in those difficult circumstances.

Kyle Pierce  2:20:46

Yeah, that was like, the only other thing I wanted to say was that you make meaning out of it, you know? Think since our last episode, we were exploring the, the science seen as sort of not science, Enos of astrology, and kind of, regardless of like, where you come come down on what is or isn't, you know, objectively true about astrology, it's a tool for meaning making. And there is no objective single meaning to things. You know, it's like our job as humans is we do the meaning making. And astrology is a great tool for that. And can really strategy is very Jupiter free in the sense of that it can very much stabilize and affirm meaning in certain ways, like, oh, yeah, this, this came up this time, and like, you know, connects with this. And maybe this means that I didn't get picked on and made fun of in high school for, for nothing, you know, that there's something to be gained from that, or something that can be made positive out of that. And that's not to say that, like, oh, yeah, get picked on in high school, that'd be great. Let's say that, you know, Yeah, that sucks. But like we can, we can turn, we can turn that into, we can find gems in that, you know, we can become people that empathize with people that were bullied or, you know, we can be equipped with the tools to help to help those people or, you know, whatever. There's lots of ways to make meaning. And I guess I, sometimes I wish I was like one of those astrologers that have, like, a really strict sense of beliefs that, you know, I could tell clients like, oh, well, this means that in a past life, this and that, and you're in this life to heal that wound, I wish I could tell people that and I don't disagree with those ideas or statements. I just don't know if it's my particular personal role to say those things. But I mean, yeah, I think at the end of the day, give yourself credit to, I guess, for all the things you've done to make that work, all the work you've done to make progress. You know, if you got a bad a bad, traditional Venus, you know, focus on like, the take some time to focus on like, the ways that you've been Venus, to people, or in your life. Because you have anybody who hasn't been a little bit Venus. Yeah, I don't know. I think that I know, early on in astrology, for me, particularly Hellenistic astrology would look at, like, you know, the negative things that were being described. But I kind of forgot to give myself credit for all the things that I've done to manage that. And, you know, your chart can't take that away from you, I guess. Doesn't mean you're doomed to fail at this, you know, means you have a challenge here. And, you know, you might do the work to make the best of that, or to turn that around. But it might be almost makes like your achievements, that area, like more earned or deserved, in some ways, because they weren't like handed to you, or, you know, the world wasn't wasn't built to accommodate, you know, your particular inclinations, you had to carve out your, your, your niche.

Tristan Paylor  2:24:36

Yeah, I like that, you know, having to carve out your niche. I think that really is one of the important lessons of debilitated planets. And just, you know, thinking more about the different perspectives you can take when you approach those placements. You know, when I think about my own debilitated planets like to use, you know, my Moon in Scorpio as an example. You know, I have anxiety disorders, I have OCD. And those, you know, the symbolism of the Moon in Scorpio really connects with those experiences to me, and you know, that's some of the most difficult stuff that I deal with in my life, like, I don't feel like I'm a better person, because I have OCD, my life would be better if I didn't have it, you know, I wouldn't wish it on anyone, there's no, there's no benefit, at least for me, you know, maybe other people have a different perspective on their own illness, but for me, like, there's no benefit to having it, that, you know, the challenges it's brought to my life, you know, haven't really done anything of value for me. But, you know, it's part of my story, and I can see it reflected in my moon sign, and that makes me feel seen, it makes me feel seen, you know, by the cosmos, and, you know, some of the ways of managing that stuff is also communicated by that symbol. So it's not just, you know, sort of reflecting my experience, and giving me an alternative way of describing that experience. But, you know, the, the skills are what's in the toolbox of the moon, and Scorpio, you know, offers me potentially some guidance for how to manage that. And so, you know, that's, that's one way that, you know, the Moon in Scorpio is meaningful to me, and it's describing something pretty negative. And pretty hard. But on the other hand, you know, there if I look at my chart through a more fun perspective, my Moon in Scorpio also describes some things that are like, pretty neutral or pretty funny or goofy, you know, because it's an awkward placement for the moon. It's like the Moon in Scorpio is in the fifth house. The Fifth house is supposed to be you know, how we have fun and take pleasure in things and you know, what we value and, you know, I'm like, an avid Bone Collector, and, you know, my idea of a good time, is like, going to the entomology section of the library and reading the weirdest thing that would freak everybody else out, you know, like, that's my, the things that I enjoy our fairy Moon in Scorpio, you know, like, I keep a praying mantis as a path because like, I enjoy that. And it's like, that's kind of funny, you know, or it's just like, I, you know, there's this certain weirdness. To me, that is also symbolized by a Moon in Scorpio, and I can lean into that, and like, see the humor and the, you know, creativity and uniqueness in that. So there are all these different outlooks you can take when you're looking at those placements. And some of them might reflect genuinely difficult experiences you've had, but offer some guidance as to how to deal with them. And some of them, you know, might reflect neutral or even positive experiences, even though the placement is unusual or difficult.

Kyle Pierce  2:27:58

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think there are things about totally a Scorpio moon in the fifth house, right? Wouldn't it be great, if there was no such thing, if there was no such thing as a fallen planet or plant, you know, or whatever, there were no outcasts, you know, if you're going to have like, highly successful people, you're going to have big failures to write. But I'm proud to be somebody who, who likes those people, likes the little stories of the people that you know, fell through the cracks, or, you know, refuse to even refuse but just by nature aren't, don't just fit just don't easily fit in to the generally accepted scheme. But I'm glad that there are people like that, to to have those people who care about those people care about those those things, situations and experiences. Because they exist, and we have opportunity to make meaning out of those things. I mean, it that's like my, my job, our job, Tristan, like, is it think of it like that way? Like, oh, yeah, I like to read about serial killers. And I can't think of anything redeeming or positive about that. Other than, you know, that exists. And to be made out of that, actually, there's nothing good about about being interested in that. But a lot of people are, I don't know, I don't know what they will.

Tristan Paylor  2:29:24

Maybe it is, maybe it's the motivation behind, you know, the the Scorpy onic desire to understand the worst parts of human nature, you know, the willingness to face things that, you know, we don't generally want to look at in order, you know, to understand the extremes of human nature and, you know, to understand it, how is I think like, this sort of what most people are probably interested in, you know, when they're reading about true crime is how, or why, how did this happen? And if we know how it happened And maybe it can be prevented. And so maybe there is you know that that interest has redeeming qualities, right or like, you know, what if you're you know, in into forensics or something or, you know, you investigate these horrible crimes for a living, like you're doing work in a very melodic, you know, blind debilitated area of life in order to prevent that those circumstances from happening.

Kyle Pierce  2:30:31

Exactly. I don't know if we'll ever be able to, like completely eliminate those things. But I think that, you know, we can reduce them. Let's say that, you know, the planets have been going around in circles for 1000s of years, and awful shit still happens on Earth, great things still happen on earth. But the overall quality of life is improved, I think on scale. We're not murdering each other on quite the same scale that we used to, I don't know, life expectancies have been improved. Lots of other things are terrible. But I want the path to remediation. I like to think it's my, you know, optimistic, because he needs you better maybe and the, you know, maybe the Moon in Scorpio says Everything's fucked, and we're all gonna die alone. But we got to accept both of those realities, because both of them are true.

Tristan Paylor  2:31:24

Yeah, that's it. multiple, multiple perspectives on reality can be true simultaneously. I guess one last thing might want to say is, Karolina did ask about how undignified planets or challenging aspects relate to one's karma? Which I think is a great question, but one I am absolutely not qualified to answer. Karma as I understand it, is a very, very complex, multifaceted, philosophical and religious concept that can't really be separated from you know, the religions and philosophies it belongs to, like in in Hinduism, or Jainism, for example. And so, I am certainly, you know, not being of that religious or philosophical background myself, I am not really qualified to speak on how karma plays out in a chart. But I think, you know, if you maybe looked into some Vedic astrologers, there might be some very talented folks who can answer that question for you.

Kyle Pierce  2:32:44

Um, you know, in an interpersonal interpersonally, like a one on one conversation, I'll have all kinds of conversations about.

Tristan Paylor  2:32:50

Yeah, yeah,

Kyle Pierce  2:32:52

just the idea of karma, what I think about it, or my constantly changing different philosophically thoughts about about such things, but in the context of your podcast and making an authoritative statement? Yeah, I'm not prepared to make a statement on that. So for that, specifically, what Tristan said,

Tristan Paylor  2:33:15

do we want to mention a couple things about remediation? Yeah, that's another method. You know, if, if you do find that something about a difficult placement in your chart resonates with your lived experience, you know, to the extent that like, your own agency is able to change those circumstances. remediation can be, you know, a sort of like a magical act, you know, that helps support you in taking control of the circumstances.

Kyle Pierce  2:33:47

Yeah. I certainly

Tristan Paylor  2:33:52

know, I mean, I guess we should probably define remediation.

Kyle Pierce  2:33:57

Yeah, um, you might have a more exact definition. To me, remediation is like the, the solutions to the problems that something in your chart is pointing out or not solutions, but like the, the ways to remediate or remediate, you know, to smooth that, that that out?

Tristan Paylor  2:34:15

Yeah, smoothing it out is a good, good way of describing it. Remediation is, you know, say, a planet in your chart, you know, symbolizes something difficult for you. And you know, you have a hard time managing the the topics are the energy of that planet as it is in your chart. You can do things that are of the nature of that planet or that honor that planet in some way. And that is a form of magic, essentially. You know, and and whatever you believe about magic, you know, there are different perspectives on it. For me, it's it's more of a psychological tool. Like I don't think the remediation is going to fix all my problems, but it is like a support And, you know, potentially an outlet. So like, if you have problems with Mars energy in your life, you know, an example that Kyle uses often is hitting his punching bag. You know, getting getting in a really heavy workout is an example of a Mars remediation because it's, it's honoring Mars, and it's giving Mars like a constructive outlet in your life in some way.

Kyle Pierce  2:35:28

And even just like on a practical level, like, I'm working on, like a series of articles, flush out my remediation page on my website, and I like it when it's practical, I like it when it it's fits into, you know, established ideas about how people work outside of astrology, but when you feel if you have a lot of anger and aggression and stuff, well therapy is good. But you know, finding a healthy outlet for those feelings is good. It's a good thing to do. expressing feelings sucks and then they just, you know, they blow up and then you hurt people you don't want to hurt people, especially as a cancer rising probably. Yeah, of the punching bag and actually, particularly with Mars and cancer kept popping into my head is how many UFC fighters have it and what you were saying earlier about, like, you know, the Mars wanting to express itself like an appropriately it makes sense to me that a lot of those UFC fighters like get into that because it's an appropriate channel for the Mars energy. And so you know, finding appropriate channels. So, I would say swimming, physical activity. Water gun fights,

Tristan Paylor  2:36:50

water gun fights are good Mars in Cancer remediation. I love that

Kyle Pierce  2:36:55

if you start like an adult Water Gun park like adults can can shoot each other with water guns and throw water balloons at each other and my God, that's the flag with water guns. Oh my god, I think that's your that's your destiny.

Tristan Paylor  2:37:10

That's your calling Uranus and Mars rules the fifth house which is fun and recreation and it's in your first house in a water sign clearly, Karolina was destined to open an amusement park where people can shoot each other with water guns.

Kyle Pierce  2:37:24

I would love that, that would be so amazing. And I would totally we would promote your waterpark on the show. That would be fantastic. But or something like that, you know, I guess that's how I like to approach remediation a lot. But, you know, finding constructive manifestations of your chat.

Tristan Paylor  2:37:48

I think you found a good Venus retrograde in Aries remediation earlier, when you know you were talking about fashion. And you know, potentially a good remediate of activity for Venus retrograde in Aries is you know, just not even necessarily, you know, as, as a professional thing, you could just do it for fun, like designing outfits or, you know, like Mars and Aries real sharp things, like pull out the sewing machine, or, you know, out of colors or learn how to tattoo, you know, stuff, stuff like that. Yeah, loud colors, like make make a piece of art that's just like really bold and spiky and full of bright colors and hot things. Yeah. Yeah, like creative outlets.

Kyle Pierce  2:38:36

Even if you don't like that, like in your space all the time. Like, create, like, an altar to that like 90s like, hot pink jumpsuit. With like, spikes for shoulder pads. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Tristan Paylor  2:38:54

And there's Sorry, what are you gonna say?

Kyle Pierce  2:38:59

Nothing. I was really grateful that you were about to talk, you're the impetus was no longer on

Tristan Paylor  2:39:10

your planet planetary donation is another form of remediation, or you know, if there's a planet that's being a pain in your ass, you know, figure out who are who are that planets people and support them in some way. And that's, you know, a way of sort of creating a sense of friendliness with what that planet represents. And, you know, maybe we'll help you work with its energy a bit. So, you know, with Mars, yeah. Veterans is an obvious one.

Kyle Pierce  2:39:40

Dv domestic violence victims. Yeah. Are from cancer, be working with them to be donating to shelter?

Tristan Paylor  2:39:46

And that's, I mean, that's where I see you know, planets and fall in detriment. Or in difficult aspect working most of the time anyway, like when I think of the charts of people I know who have those placements, you know, they're like paramedic acts or psychiatric nurses or therapists or you know, they volunteer at a shelter or you know, do some kind of work in their lives related to those difficult circumstances that those placements represent.

Kyle Pierce  2:40:16

Yeah. And that's just intuitively makes sense. Because, you know, whether you've experienced that yourself or not, a lot of the times people who have experienced something in that realm themselves are the ones that, you know, want to go help other people who have challenges in that area. But yeah, I mean, a lot of the time a chart is like, yeah, you'll see difficult placement, and it's them, you know, helping other people in those situations or working with people in those situations.

Tristan Paylor  2:40:45

And even if you know, if that placement doesn't represent a difficult circumstance that happened to you specifically, it can represent sort of a higher tolerance or ability to navigate difficult circumstances creatively. So like, you know, I know a paramedic who has like a really gnarly chart, and it's just like, His disposition is just like really well suited to that line of work. Just the way he had, like, he just he has he's really good at keeping his cool and he's, you know, really good at keeping his head in a crisis. And you know, he can he can stomach the work essentially. So it's not so much that like, he's injured really traumatic things in his life, but he helps other people who are dealing with traumatic events because he's got the capacity to you know, walk out into those dark scary places and face them, which I think is a very debilitated planet quality is being able to go into those scary or difficult places and not be sort of scared away.

Kyle Pierce  2:41:52

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Tristan Paylor  2:41:59

I think you are slowly dying. I'm hungry. I'm tired.

Kyle Pierce  2:42:06

I do like to do things for hours and hours and hours on end, but I like to eat while I'm doing those things or, you know, not be in a closet that they were shutting curtain up and soundproofed and sit in a bottle of my own sweat.

Tristan Paylor  2:42:28

That was it hot there.

Kyle Pierce  2:42:29

Top my closet wonders and electronics going on in here.

Tristan Paylor  2:42:36

Oh, no, this is this is Mars in the eighth house. You're just like trapped in a hot box.

Kyle Pierce  2:42:42

But I have a mission so you know moving mission but I guess

Tristan Paylor  2:42:52

Yeah, Mars is Mars is willing to do anything if there's a mission.

Kyle Pierce  2:42:55

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was just imagining things I get tired and think some silly things. But just imagining like, you know, might be a fun thing to do to just like, I don't know. Do you ever when you were a kid? Like he didn't play like war games as much right?

Tristan Paylor  2:43:16

No, I that interest was sort of nipped in the bud when I was really young. My parents were very against me playing any kind of violent games or having any toy soldiers or toy weapons or anything like that. So it just wasn't a big part of my childhood. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce  2:43:31

I was a big part of my childhood. And I don't know sometimes I like to do it for myself. Just like once like child Lee Child, like, childlike way like pretend like whatever I need to get done is again Nishan like, I don't know, yeah, and warrior mentality about it. And I don't know. being playful with your chart, I think can be really helpful. When you're able to like sort of laugh about it and be playful with it and like, I don't know, it sort of like loses its its hold over you to some degree like I don't know, maybe not taking it too seriously and have a think for a while I was thinking like how looking at your placements or whatever, like a shitty placement and I was like, turned into a self fulfilling prophecy.

Tristan Paylor  2:44:29

The fifth house ruler and the first so yeah, playfulness is it's part of part of the identity of this whole chart.

Kyle Pierce  2:44:38

Actors like you see roles coming up in their chart so often. And I can't help but think that that's like that must be remediation in some way like you know about them. It's it's the character they played or

Tristan Paylor  2:44:53

like Alan Rickman, you know, playing Snape and having moon and Scorpio. So often I see you Yeah, like so often I see actors with all these debilitated planets, and it doesn't necessarily show up in their personal professional lives, but it shows up in the roles they play. And, you know, maybe there's some potential, you know, remediation, like you said in there to where, you know, play play the role of Mars in Cancer, mercury, and Pisces, you know, or the moon being maltreated, or whatever, you know, play that role, you know, as an acting project or something, or, you know, write that character into a piece of writing that you're working on?

Kyle Pierce  2:45:35

Yeah, give it a separate body. Yeah, sort of, like an offering.

Tristan Paylor  2:45:43

Yeah, and offering Exactly. Oh, I, I'm really glad you mentioned the self fulfilling prophecy thing, because I think people underestimate how powerful that is. It's extremely powerful. And it has like, extremely noticeable societal effects as well, like our judgments of other people, our pre judgments of other people, or certain groups of people, you know, predicted their success to some extent, if we're in positions of authority, right. So certainly, in our own lives, as well, you know, what we expect for ourselves often comes true, and, you know, that's something that I think we need to be careful about with astrology, where it's really easy for us, you know, if we're in an anxious place, maybe to look at our chart or transit coming up and be like, well, that confirms the, you know, most catastrophic situation I could imagine in my anxious brain on. And then, you know, you end up creating a circumstances that, you know, you you didn't want, it's, it's not, it's not fate, you know, it's our, we actually, you know, have some power over our lives and our expectations, they have a lot of power.

Kyle Pierce  2:46:54

Yeah, don't give, don't give your power away to astrology, or to the parents. Yeah, don't like, let it remove, let it divorce you from the agency that you do have. None of us are masters of the universe. But, you know, we can choose different things changing can take time, and it's hard, but it is possible to do.

Tristan Paylor  2:47:14

And I think it's, I mean, maybe the key, you know, there's kind of a balancing act with astrology where, you know, on one hand, we don't want to take it too seriously. And we want to be careful when we're talking about when we're using astrology, to talk about negative stuff, we want to be careful because we don't want you know, people to take it too seriously. And then start, you know, become afraid because of a birth chart, which you know, is that's not, that's not a great situation. But at the same time, astrology in order to speak meaningfully about life needs to have symbols available to it to talk about the most difficult aspects of life. So it's, you know, striking that balance, right? Or it's like, we don't want to be dismissive of what might be genuinely difficult things in somebody's life that they have been able to use astrology to find meaning for. But also, you know, being really careful not to inspire fear. Yeah. It's like finding that balance, where like, you know, astrology doesn't dictate your life, it should not inspire fear. But at the same time, it does need to have some scary language in it, if you want to use it to talk about things that are difficult in your life that aren't, you know, necessarily like trying to predict whether or not bad things will happen. But you know, making meaning out of maybe difficult circumstances you're already going through or have already been through, like, I find it's more useful to look at the present or look, in hindsight, you know, what that kind of symbolism instead of looking ahead and predicting doom for yourself?

Kyle Pierce  2:48:50

Yeah. I just want to say like, look at how it actually resonates with your life. Yeah. Yeah, I guess like don't project you know, things that aren't, that don't resonate with your life onto it. And through that, you can, you know, make really good assessments of your life and like, you know, see some things you need to patch up if you can see some things that tend to go more smoothly for you and work it.

Tristan Paylor  2:49:15

Yeah. Like ultimately you You are the authority on your own life, not your birth chart.

Kyle Pierce  2:49:20

Yeah. Well, that's a good place to wrap it up for today.

Tristan Paylor  2:49:25

I think so. Well,

Kyle Pierce  2:49:27

thank you so much, Jett. And Karolina for your awesome questions. And yeah, like to encourage anyone else does Questions, please. You know, send us a send us your questions at astrology hotline pod@gmail.com We would love to hear them and we'd love to hear back from jet and Catalina as well.

Tristan Paylor  2:49:50

Yeah, that would be awesome. Thank you both so much for these questions. You know, obviously we got a ton of discussion material out of them. They were excellent questions. really, really interesting and important topics. So and also just super interesting that your charts are so similar. So thematically, you know, things are all like tied together really nicely between these two charts.

Kyle Pierce  2:50:13

That's where mystical Kyle shows up. And it was like, that wasn't an accident. I don't know.

Tristan Paylor  2:50:19

Oh, Sam, that's where my, my, my mystical side is loves this. It's just like, yes, this was meant to be.

Kyle Pierce  2:50:27

You know, it's funny when I first had the idea for this show. I was imagining, like, love line style with like, you know, questions and like, 10 minute answers, you know?

2:50:37

Yeah, so it's just get longer

Kyle Pierce  2:50:39

and longer. So I kind of like that, too. I don't know. Maybe we'll do a special episode one day,

Tristan Paylor  2:50:46

like to answer 10 questions,

Kyle Pierce  2:50:49

to answer them as fast as possible in a short, succinct way,

Tristan Paylor  2:50:52

that will be a huge challenge for me.

Kyle Pierce  2:50:55

I agree. I like this format. It's fine. It's just funny how it actually makes a lot more sense. But But yeah, what do you got going on these days? Tristan,

Tristan Paylor  2:51:08

I have got the usual things going on. My prices have gone up a little bit for birth chart consultations. So it is $60 for 60 minutes over zoom. And I can, you know, answer your questions about your birth chart or just give you a general natal chart reading. And if you know if you like it, you're welcome to follow up and I can look into transits and perfections and more time based things as well. And you can book a reading with me through my website, which is bad sign astrology.ca. And you can also find me on social media. I'm on Instagram at bad sign astrology. And I have a blog where I've been posting my astrology writing, which you'll find on my website, but also on Tumblr at bad sign astrology. And what about you Kyle can consistent branding

Kyle Pierce  2:52:10

you know, the huge, you can book a consultation with me at my website. Remember the name of my own website, apparently? Kyle Pierce astrology.com You have like five different irons in the fire. I don't wanna talk about anything till one is actually

Tristan Paylor  2:52:27

would you say that your your fixed t square is? is causing you to put too many irons in the fire? Yeah, yes.

Kyle Pierce  2:52:35

In the sheer lack of mutability in my chart. It's like, I was like the chess analogy. Just like cardinals, like your opening move. Fixed is like your mid game and usable is your end game. And actually with chest sight, my end game is awful. I Yeah, it's really hard for me to like wrap things up. But yet, I still want to do you know, like six different things at a time. So

Tristan Paylor  2:53:01

this is why we can't wrap up a show or conversations because neither of us have enough mutable in our charts. It's just all cardio you only have Yeah, yeah, I have the same situation. And we've only have a mutable planet. trying desperately to wrap everything up.

Kyle Pierce  2:53:21

Yep. So you know, if I ever finish any of those things, I'll let y'all know. But other than that,

Tristan Paylor  2:53:29

all yet. Well, bye for now. Thanks for listening.

Kyle Pierce  2:53:33

Yes, thank you all for listening. Please like the show. Please do leave a review. Give us all five of your stars. And share it with people and check out news leads pretty cool if you have a question you would like to hear answered on astrology hotline. Go ahead and send us an email at astrology hotline pod@gmail.com

Tristan Paylor  2:54:02

I'm hitting stop. I'm doing it. Potential.

2:54:07

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