Second Saturn Returns and the Astrology of Parents

Kyle Pierce 0:06

Hello, and welcome to astrology hotline. My name is Kyle Pierce and hosting with me today is Tristan Paylor. (Hello, everyone.) We got quite a show lined up for y'all. How are you doing today, Tristan?

Tristan Paylor 0:24

Pretty good. I have some very activated pets around me because they sleep 21 hours a day unless a podcast is about to be recorded. And that is when they are at their most active.

Kyle Pierce 0:40

I feel like we should start introducing Kitzu in the beginning of the show because he does seem to make his way on.

Tristan Paylor 0:46

If you hear background noises if you hear little like tapping sounds, that is the dog. Do you hear whining sounds? That's definitely the dog. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. Like every he actually just went downstairs because my partner came home. So Oh, for once, for once. I will not have animals crawling all over me while I'm recording. But I think that's a really good idea to just give him the mic at the beginning of every episode.

Kyle Pierce 1:17

I actually think I let one of his barks in on the last episode.

Tristan Paylor 1:21

Now he wants to be heard. He wants the world to know,

Kyle Pierce 1:26

maybe maybe this will appease him. This will appease him actually, it's a listening to a lot of ghost stories in preparation for Halloween. That's it's like ghosts, you know, like they sometimes they just want to be acknowledged and heard. Right? So if you just like acknowledge that they're there, like you're seeing ghost. You don't have to haunt me anymore. And then they'll go away. And that's what kids he wants. He just wants some was to introduce him once to be part of the show.

Tristan Paylor 1:51

That's really profound. I feel like I'm going to I'm going to be holding on to that for a while I feel like I have I am haunted by certain thoughts and feelings and experiences. And you know, maybe they are just asking to be seen and validated and then they will move on.

Unknown Speaker 2:10

Yeah, maybe? Um, have you ever seen a ghost?

Tristan Paylor 2:14

Or any ghosts? No, no, not for lack of trying. I mean, I mean, I was more of an alien person. As a kid. I really wanted to see an alien. But no aliens, no ghosts.

Kyle Pierce 2:23

It's interesting. I'd see I should save this actually, maybe conversation for our Halloween special that we're planning. But I feel like I have the significations for seeing ghosts and shit in my chart and nothing.

Tristan Paylor 2:38

Yeah, you've got Mars in the eighth house. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce 2:41

it's, you know, I got the ruler of the eighth in the seventh, which is supposed to be one that indicates like mediumship and stuff. I actually know somebody. I found a person on Astro sequence that has my exact birth chart, even more of an astro twin. Interesting. And she does actually

Tristan Paylor 3:01

she has a medium when we go, like,

Kyle Pierce 3:05

see people's auras and stuff. I definitely, you know, pick up on people's vibes, but not a medium and I'm glad for it. I would I love ghost stories, but I would probably probably soil myself if I

Tristan Paylor 3:21

actually encountered the ghost. We don't want that. Yeah, I'm not I'm not

Kyle Pierce 3:25

done with it. Anyway, we have a couple questions today. We want to dive in.

Tristan Paylor 3:31

I guess so yes, we could do that. Our first question. Full disclosure comes from my partner Keith. So I am not in any way biased in my answers to this question. I am not at all compromised. I am completely objective about this one. Keith has already had his first Saturn Return. And you know, being a Capricorn rising, who is always prepared for everything wants to know what to look forward to during his second Saturn Return. So you know, he's planning ahead.

Kyle Pierce 4:09

So let's see 2020 44. So you know what's

Tristan Paylor 4:15

coming up, like, just around the corner.

Kyle Pierce 4:19

It's never too soon to plan, I think to most Capricorns now, and

Tristan Paylor 4:22

I mean, I got I got a few things in Capricorn in my chart, I can sympathize this position. I feel like it might be good to start by just defining what a Saturn Return is and when they start and how to find out you know, when you're having yours and that kind of stuff. Sure. So a Saturn Return is when the planet Saturn as it is currently moving through the sky returns to the degree of the sign it was at when you were born. So in case case He was born with Saturn at 21 degrees of Sagittarius. So whenever Saturn reaches 21 degrees of Sagittarius, he will have a Saturn Return. And that does not happen very often. That's about every 27 to 29 years, it takes Saturn to get through the whole Zodiac. So it's quite a long cycle and you can kind of, you know, divide your life into chapters based on Saturn returns, every you know, close to 30 years or so.

Kyle Pierce 5:36

It's kind of a big deal because it's like the slowest moving of the visible planets. So it's really your measuring time. And that sort of astrological sense is like really the most like definitive like beginning and end of like the longest portion, the largest division of time, I guess, when it comes to, to astrological timing

Tristan Paylor 5:55

Hmm. Well in Saturn has connotations of time and of endings, you know, being sort of at the boundary of what is visible and what is invisible and being so slow moving and so far away, you know, and being associated with an ancient deity who is associated with time, there is that sense of cycles and keeping track of the order of time that is associated with Saturn.

Kyle Pierce 6:29

It's Kronos and Greek. Yeah, time itself. But um, I think also just wanted to note too, is that the berries amongst different astrologers I think, traditionally, sort of recognize the return of Saturn to the natal sign is sort of like the beginning of the Saturn Return. And then the when Saturn reaches the natal degree is kind of like the apex or climax like the definitive Saturn Return.

Tristan Paylor 6:57

Yeah, I also that is the system I use as well where a Saturn Return begins as soon as Saturn enters that sign. So in Keith's case, you know the second Saturn hits zero degrees, zero minutes Sagittarius the return has begun. And it will last until Saturn leaves that sign. So until Saturn moves on to Capricorn, it has there's kind of two definitions in a way. Yeah, there's the moment that it actually hits the natal degree. And there's, you know, the whole period that it spends transiting through the natal sign.

Kyle Pierce 7:29

Yeah, I recognize both the significant events, I think even like where Saturn is in the sign will tell you a little bit about how the Saturn Return will unfold. For you and I dressed in who have Saturn, very early degrees of Capricorn, for me at least I felt like the Saturn Return kind of just kicked off with a bang. And the rest of the Saturn Return was like dealing with everything that was like initiated early on. Wow, like when it's later in degrees, it's like a more like a slow boil, you know, things are sort of vague, getting introduced slowly and then like, sort of climax around the time of the exact return.

Tristan Paylor 8:06

And I think in in Keith's case, in particular, not only because he has Saturn in one of the later degrees of Sagittarius, but also because of, you know, some various other timing techniques, stuff that will happen close to the end of his Saturn Return. I think the the end point, the last year or so is going to be the most noteworthy astrologically speaking.

Kyle Pierce 8:28

Yeah, well, um, do you want to like for the listeners, just kind of go over Keith's chart a bit?

Tristan Paylor 8:33

Yes. Actually, before I do that, I do want to mention, if any listeners are interested in calculating the exact moments of their own Saturn returns, like when it reaches the natal degree, like my first definition there. Astro seek.com has a Saturn Return calculator that you can use, you just plug in your birth data. And it will show you the chart for the exact moment that Saturn reaches the natal degree, which is pretty cool and tell you exactly what time of day it is. So if you're curious, look it up there.

Kyle Pierce 9:07

On that note, one of the things I really like to look at when I'm like, looking for significations around the Saturn Return, you know what that's going to look like? I really like to look at the bat chart, like the exact Return chart, just like the whole configuration. But also, I like to look at the ingress chart as well, when like first ingresses into the sign. And then it can be really interesting to watch with Saturn in particular, just sort of like the story of Saturn through its whole journey through through that sign which unfolds over usually about two and a half to three years. So I'm actually kind of excited because the astrology of 2044 and behind him is actually not looked that far ahead yet. So like we're going to take a peek into the future.

Tristan Paylor 9:57

Yes, we're gazing into our crystal The ball. So I guess we should go over Keith's chart which will be in the show notes if people want to follow along as always. So Keith was born with seven degrees of Capricorn rising, which makes Saturn the ruler of his ascendant. Because Saturn rules Capricorn and Saturn is located in the 12th house at 21 degrees of Sagittarius. And it is being very loosely opposed by Mars in Gemini. And it is squaring Venus and Mercury in pisces. Keith also has a grand Trine in the fire signs of which Saturn is apart. So the sun and Jupiter are in Aries. The moon is in Leo, and Saturn's in Sagittarius. And they're all creating this nice Grand fire trine. So Saturn is connected to every single one of the traditional planets and Keith's chart, which makes it very significant its ruling the ascendant and it's able to see and talk to every single one of the traditional planets. So just based off of that alone, you know, I would expect the Saturn Return to be pretty significant and maybe pretty multifaceted in terms of how many areas of life it might be relevant to, because Saturn is central. Yeah, Saturday is talking to everything.

Kyle Pierce 11:34

And sometimes I'm like trying to anticipate somebody said it in return on insanity, just kind of like off doing its own thing somewhere in the chart. I sort of like, I mean, it can be kind of tricky to like, sort of identify what might go on, it's like, oh, well just, you know, it's in like the the 12th or something like, well, 12 how stuff is going to come up. But then when it's like connected everything like it is in keeps chart, like oh, well, that's gonna, that's gonna look like something.

Tristan Paylor 12:01

Everything's gonna come up.

Kyle Pierce 12:02

Where do we start? Exactly. But it can be nice, though, to about like a second Saturn Return Is that you, you know, had a first one already. And you can sort of only get like a sense of like, what things might come up in the next one. But you also are in a good position to prepare for it.

Tristan Paylor 12:22

Yeah, it's with any sort of planetary return or any kind of timing technique that relies on a cycle, which, you know, in astrology, they all do, and astrology, everything is cyclical, and you know, returns to the same place again, and again, my first piece of advice for analyzing that, you know, transit or timing technique is, well, what happened in your life last time it happened? And yeah, well, the Saturn Return, you know, you don't really get that luxury until you're in your 50s because Saturn moves so slowly. But in this case, you know, keep does have that luxury of being able to say, well, you know, what happened during my first Saturn Return, you know, and, you know, looking ahead to that next phase of my life, how might some of those events be relevant to that phase of my life? So that you know, that first one key if you're curious to look back on, you know, get get a little nostalgic and look back on your first Saturn Return and think about what that meant for you. Would it be begun on December 23 2014, and ended on December 19 2017. So that whole three year period would have been the the introduction to Saturn returns?

Kyle Pierce 13:45

Yeah, I think the Saturn Return, especially like, in retrospect, is always like, I'm really fun, fun, fun International.

Tristan Paylor 13:56

Not necessarily a Saturn key word,

Kyle Pierce 13:58

informative. And, I don't know almost, of all the transits. It's like the most identifiable. I really don't see it very often that somebody that that that period of life is not really easily identifiable. It usually like stands out pretty significantly. stuff definitely happens. And it's usually like, I always think of like Professor Snape, when I think of Saturn, and bear in mind that I like Professor Snape a little bit. He's, you know, kind of a dick, but I appreciate professors names character. And I've had teachers kind of like him that were very harsh, and not, you know, warm and fuzzy teachers, but they they get their message across to you very clearly, sort of like unmistakable terms. And I feel like that's like when Saturn Return is kind of like when Professor snipes like checks the homework, like when I delivered his lesson where you have to take your ows or,

Tristan Paylor 14:58

yeah, that's a good a good way of putting I think it's, it's really kind of interesting. Because of its cycle, the returns line up with pretty significant periods and most people's lives, like significant sort of transitional periods where, you know, in your late 20s, you've, you know, at least like for us in, in North America, and in our culture, usually you've finished school by that point, and you're supposed to have a sense of, you know, what you want to do as a career. And you know, whether or not you want to start a family, you know, it's like your 20s are sort of the practice round for being an adult, like you're learning how to adults, and then by the time you hit your late 20s, it's sort of expected, like, you need to have it figured out. And if you don't have it figured out, by now, you really need to, you know, and sometimes there might be a major change of direction, right? Like, you go to school, when you're pretty young. And, you know, you might go into it thinking, I want to do a certain thing, and the experience changes you and you come out the other side wanting to do something completely different, or, you know, if you don't go to post secondary, that's not part of your experience of entering adulthood, you know, you enter the workforce, usually, for the first time. And you know, you're figuring out how to how to interact with the world and take responsibility for yourself, and all that kind of stuff. And I feel like by the time you hit your late 20s, there's often a sort of period of questioning, you know, like how far looking at how far you've come and questioning whether or not that's where you want to be is what I'm doing right now sustainable. You know, Saturn is the outermost visible planet. And so there's that sense of, of closure and the ending of a chapter. So it's sort of like, if what I've been doing up to now is not sustainable or not what I expected, there can be a big change of direction. And then when the Saturn Return happens again, you know, it's in your late 50s, which is when a lot of people retire. So that's another one where it's like, you're really transitioning from one phase of life to another, you're sort of graduating in a way, you know, like in your late 20s, you sort of graduate into like, official adulthood, you know, like you've you've hopefully sort of got the idea and mastered adulthood to some extent. And by the time you're in your late 50s, you might be retiring. And then if you're lucky, definitely plan on retirement. Yeah, exactly. planning for retirement,

Kyle Pierce 17:27

or if you haven't been planning for retirement or preparing for it, you're you're feeling the crunch? Like, you're Yeah, you're gonna want to start, or you're gonna become very aware that there's a lot of work ahead, haven't

Tristan Paylor 17:40

Yeah. Which. Yeah, yeah. And that's, I mean, really, what it comes down to is that, you know, Saturn represents the realities of aging, the realities of getting older. And there are certain points in our lives where we're confronted with those realities. And the Saturn Return symbolically represents that sort of reckoning with time.

Kyle Pierce 18:03

Yeah, if you haven't been taking care of your, your body, then you're going to be really feeling it, when a lot of health problems come up. And actually, there's a statistic, I remember reading, once that is big, basically, if you live to the age of 60, your chances of living to the age of 80 are very, very high. But it's a lot of like the people that died before the age of 60, that tend to bring down the statistics on life expectancy. That's really interesting. It's kind of like a make or break time. Like, either you were taking care of yourself, or you weren't. And if you weren't, well, you know, you're, you're gonna see

Tristan Paylor 18:38

the results. Yeah, make or break time is a good way of describing the Saturn Return, as is this is when you see the results of everything you've been doing for the last, you know, almost 30 years. It's easy. You know, to sort of, especially when we're young to have this kind of like, immortality complex, I guess. You know, like, we can just continue doing what we're doing, and we're fine now. So we'll always be fine. And you're not always aware of what the limits are until you reach them. And your body reminds you that you know, nature has very real physical limits that you cannot cross.

Kyle Pierce 19:20

Yeah, you don't get to ignore those anymore. Ignore those drink Saturn returns, take the consequences. It's another Saturn certification is signification is consequences, the consequences of your actions,

Tristan Paylor 19:32

you know, Link another another one of my first steps when I'm looking at a specific Saturn Return is, of course to look at what Saturn is doing in the person's chart. What is Saturn trying to accomplish in this chart, because, you know, during a time when Saturn is activated, that can potentially represent a time that you know, Saturn is able to do what it's trying to accomplish in the natal chart or its plans are thwarted in some way, you know, depending on what's going on in the person's life. So, as I mentioned earlier, Saturn is very significant, in Keith's chart, its ruling the ascendant, So already we know that any sort of Saturn Return is going to bring up issues of identity and selfhood you know who you are in the world, your sort of sense of having an individual self. And it is in the 12th house, which kind of just magnifies the symbolism of the Saturn Return in a way because the 12th house is the house that Saturn traditionally rejoices in. And, you know, being the last house before the first which represents beginner beginnings, it represents closure, it represents endings, so, you know, a Saturn Return with Saturn in the 12th house especially carries that symbolism of bringing a certain chapter of your life to a close. And Saturn is not only ruling the first house but also the second house which has to do with one's livelihood. So what's really interesting in Keith's case is that I consider the themes of of service and sacrifice and overcoming adversity to all be major themes of the 12th house and of Saturn. So you know, when Saturn is ruling your first house from the 12 identity is achieved through sacrifice and through facing adversity. And you know, livelihood can be that way too. And you know, being of service in some way because the 12th House has so much to do with service could be an important part of someone's livelihood or identity with this placement. And in Keith's case he literally works as a window cleaner. So you know he's doing work that other people don't want to do which is very Saturn in the 12th house you know doing doing what you don't feel like doing or what you know is generally not thought of as enjoyable.

Kyle Pierce 22:24

Like this is a good time as any to just mentioned how, you know, Tristan and I have the same ascendant actually the same like degree, both cancer risings, same planet ruling the ascendant, but we both have partners, who are who with Capricorn rising and Saturn in Sagittarius. So I feel like I have a lot of insight into the Saturn in Sagittarius ruling the first some of the the particular qualities of what that Saturn Return might entail. I do think of this is like the Bruce Willis in an diehard placement in the house in which it rejoices in like difficult, potentially difficult circumstances, but like knowing how to deal with it,

Tristan Paylor 23:10

it was it wasn't that one of the tag lines for diehard like the you know, he's the only person who can deal with this situation.

Kyle Pierce 23:19

And our liquids. I know I used it in one of the promos for one of our episodes. Because we do seem to like talking about Saturn and what was it it was like who is back again in the wrong place at the right time?

Tristan Paylor 23:34

Oh, yeah, that's that's a good one for Saturn wrong place at the right time. That is absolutely perfect. Like Saturn in the 12. Yeah. Yeah, that's I mean, that definitely fits Keith being you know, the person that you call to face a situation that no one else wants to deal with. He is very good in those situations that you know, other people would lose their their cool and he's just like, you know, and he doesn't procrastinate and doesn't he's like, I I'm going to be there like I'm going to face you know, whatever it is. I'm going to show up and deal with it. as unpleasant as it might be.

Kyle Pierce 24:10

Yeah, Saturn, you know, it's in the 12th house, but the sun is in Aries in the fourth and it's applying to that trine with Saturn. So it's like actually, like a pretty nice mitigation for Saturn. Like does pull Saturn out of the 12 it's a little less 12 houses. Yes. And they're both you know of that generation of Saturn and Sagittarius that has Jupiter in Aries which I think that's like a pretty good I like that Saturn and Sagittarius in particular just because that nice relationship to a much more supported Saturn.

Tristan Paylor 24:46

Yeah, yeah when to you know the ruling the planet that rules Saturn because Saturn is in Sagittarius is Jupiter. So you know the yeah, there's a nice trine between Saturn and its ruler and its ruler happens, you know to be a benefic planet. So

Kyle Pierce 25:06

think of like the now I'm thinking of Capricorn rising with Saturn and Sagittarius is like business in the front and party in the back. Always like just impressed by how professional she is or can be, but also say that she's responsible for like teaching me how to have fun. I don't know. It's now both qualities to Jupiter, Saturn.

Tristan Paylor 25:26

Yeah, it's about as sort of optimistic and warm as Saturn can get. Although in Keith's case, he also has a nature which is another important distinction to consider when it comes to Saturn returns. If you were born during the day, then Saturn is of the second favor because Saturn is a daytime planet. You know, the Saturn is cold. So the daytime kind of warms up Saturn's coldness and loosens him up a little bit. But at night, you know, Saturn is, is colder. Yeah, so a night chart Saturn Return

Unknown Speaker 26:06

tend to be a bit heavier, more challenging. Yeah,

Tristan Paylor 26:09

heavy, as heavy as a good word for it. I definitely feel heavy when you think of like the dark and the cold, you know, and the heaviness of Saturn at night, sort of shadowy, like, you picture like somebody wearing a dark cloak, and you know, in the shadows and like the corner.

Kyle Pierce 26:26

Yeah, I literally think of Saturn, like my chart, Saturn is just being heavier or like, like density, and how more dense things sink to the bottom, there's like just that weight to night chart Saturn. But I mean, relative, you're looking at a Saturn Return. And you know, like you got a night chart Saturn with potentially a big job. That's when you really want to like dig into like the nuances of Saturn placement, to get a sense of where our areas of support coming from, you know, what can be leaned upon to kind of get through some of the the challenges that might come up?

Tristan Paylor 27:00

Well, one thing that Kieth’s Saturn has going for it is good essential dignity. It's actually in its own term, and in its own face. Oh, yeah. So we've we've talked a little bit about some of these, you know, the minutiae of essential Dignity Before where the signs are divided into smaller subsections that are also you know, ruled by planets. So, you know, the terms are these uneven divisions of the signs of the zodiac. And, you know, each of them is ruled by a planet so when Saturn is in its own term, it's sort of like you know, Saturn is is in its own room. It may not be in its own house, but it's got like the best and most Saturday room in the house. Throw my personal sweet. Yeah, exactly. Hotel Sagittarius. Yeah, yeah, the hotel Jupiter and you've got the best you know, guests sweets, you know, with all the channels that you want on TV and a good Wi Fi connection. Yeah. You know, the kind of bed you want that kind of view you want. So, Saturn does, you know, have some good essential dignity, which I think plays out in encase life for sure. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce 28:09

no, yeah, I mean, that definitely, that helps a lot. But even just like me, and it's configured to like, both benefics. And even like with Saturn, it's kind of like in that overcoming square with Venus. One thing to like, I like to keep in mind, is that, you know, that overcoming square is going to tend to be kind of good for the planet. That's overcoming it, you know, like, it's, it's better for Saturn is for Venus. Yeah, it's like the fourth house from Saturn. So it's kind of like the foundation and support for for Saturn.

Tristan Paylor 28:39

That's a good way of looking at it like that where the Venus in case chart is in Pisces in the third house. And the third house is the fourth from the 12th. So with the fourth house symbolizing, you know, what is underneath you, you know, the ground that you walk on and where you came from, you know, it's a Saturday is kind of coming from the genetics in a way like being a Jupiter ruled sign and having, you know, that Venusian foundation underneath it, you know, it's it's got like, some pretty positive and optimistic foundations for you know, being Saturn at night.

Kyle Pierce 29:15

I especially like from Saturn's perspective. Like, sort of Venus Saturn combinations. I don't know like if Saturn ruling the first, like whatever combination with Venus I tend to like more. Like Megan has this really nice like, she love this, this aspect of this Venus and Libra like sextile Saturn in Sagittarius. And there's like reception there because you know, Saturn exalts in Libra. And then similarly with Keith with like the really nice Venus in pisces. I find it really interesting that like Venus and Saturn just have this weird relationship. Saturn, exulting in the Venus sign and they're both planets that you know both their domiciles are in earthen Air signs as opposed to like Jupiter and Mars that have their domiciles in fire and water signs. And there's something similar about the nature of Saturn and Venus. And Saturn might be like the the extreme version of Venus, in that sense.

Tristan Paylor 30:17

Well, just fairness and justice. You know, when you think of Venus and Libra, you think of harmony and fairness and balance. And, you know, Saturn is is a little bit more like, you know, being in front of a judge in a court of law. Yeah, nonetheless. Potentially, yeah, yeah, exactly. When like, when when the Venusian techniques stopped working, like when, you know, being agreeable, and like kind and conscientious stops working, and a situation is still unjust. Then you need a little Saturn to sort of come in and be like, Okay, no, I'm drawing a boundary here. Oh, yeah. And I'm not going to be like sweet and nice about it like Venus's, I'm going to be very blunt.

Kyle Pierce 31:03

Yeah. Well, then even like, on the dark side of that, like the extreme version, was that movie with Kathy Bates, where she captures that that author, like our favorite film, or is it misery

Tristan Paylor 31:16

is based on the Stephen King novel? Yeah. And yeah, ties him up in a room and forces him to write for her whatever it is. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 31:22

Yeah. Yeah. So like, if being the Newseum and nice and pleasing and stuff doesn't doesn't work, you know, tie them to your bed and break their legs. That's extreme. Right. But that is it's very sad. And it's confining, you know? Yeah. So I mean, my point, I guess, was that, you know, the malefics belong to the SEC, that they belong to, not because they are of that nature, but because it mitigates their nature. Right. So Saturn, it like draws things together. Like a like an unlike things, like think of like a brick, even just like compressing a brick that you can use to build things. And you know, Venus brings things together that are like harmonizes things. So it's like very similar nature there. But I like when Saturn is getting support from Venus. In some way. It can be complicated. Personally, I don't know you're gonna know a lot more about like, maybe what the west side and return look like so

Tristan Paylor 32:21

well, I was not, I was not present for it. As I met him at the end of my Saturn Return, we have back to back Saturn returns, because this is Sajan minus Capricorn.

Kyle Pierce 32:31

What do you think? Well, because you met, it was the beginning of your seventh house here, right?

Tristan Paylor 32:36

It was the end of my seventh house here. Yeah, at the very tail end, literally. Two days before it ended. We met in person for the first time, which is, you know, that's Saturn for you, is you've got to wait for things.

Kyle Pierce 32:55

I know that well. I mean, technically, I met Megan, when I was a kid. But it's like the very end of her Saturn Return in the very beginning of mine.

Tristan Paylor 33:03

That's so wild. That is Keith's favorite phrase is elective adversity. He does rock climbing and you know, admires people who kind of push themselves into the most extreme possible scenarios like push themselves to the limits of what a human body is capable of doing. So I think it's also interesting because the first house is not just the self is the body. So, you know, Saturn is ruling the first house and it's kind of like pushing yourself to the limits of what your body is capable of. Yeah. You know, I think the way Saturn is set up, it's like, you know, this, definitely, it symbolizes, you know, encountering challenges and having to be patient and long suffering and having to be willing to face difficult circumstances. But with all this sort of, like, positive and optimistic significations, that it's kind of standing on it's like you know, making like you you know, Venus's desire it's like you want to push yourself you want to, you know, experience those extremes you want to you know, you don't want life to be easy and everything to be handed to you. That's that's not even desirable. So you're sort of meeting the the Saturn stuff in life head on, you're sort of saying Bring it on, you're, you're attracted to it, you're moving towards it, you're not resisting it, which I think bodes well for Saturn returns because it's sort of like, you know, in a way with a chart like this, when you know, your Saturn is really in your ascendant and it's in the 12th. And it's aspecting everything in your chart, it's it's got a hand in every single pie in your life. Your whole life is kind of like a Saturn Return. And so like every part of your life is preparing for those sort of pivotal moments where, you know, Saturn is going to close the chapter of some kind. You know, you're probably going to be prepared for it because you're naturally inclined towards Saturnian situations to begin with. You're not the kind of person who avoids Saturnian situations is not the kind of person who's going to avoid something just because it's unpleasant. It's like, that gives him more risks to.

Kyle Pierce 35:10

Yeah. When I think that there is, with Saturn ruling, the first from the 12, like, it's I think during the Saturn Return is kind of when you get confronted with just like a sort of irony in it and that you end up finding yourself through the process of, of maybe losing things that you held on to that were sort of part of like a false identity in some way. Like, it's very tricky one to articulate. It's

Tristan Paylor 35:43

sort of like defining yourself by what you're not, you know, like, yeah, ring out, oh, I'm not that. And that's part of how you figure out you know, who you are and what you want out of life. That's part of the process, that's sort of the Saturn part of the process, like, you know, the Venus part of the process is, well, these are things I like, and so you know, those become part of my identity, but the sad, you know, of Saturn is sort of taking charge of your identity. It's, it's more of a sort of, like, negative, like, I think of negative theology, which is like, you can't define what God is you can only define what God isn't. Yeah, it's like taking the negative theology approach but to self. Well, yeah,

Kyle Pierce 36:20

and if you mean, you know, what, to think of the nature of Saturn and drawing in a like, and unlike things, it's like, sort of during the cycle, being in the 12th house, it's sort of like drew in things that don't really serve the first house to some degree, not all of it, actually, I mean, there's there's a bit of a mitigated aversion with Sagittarius and Capricorn, that with just with the Antosha, and actually, it's, the intuition is like, pretty close to Keith's ascendant, it's like, the sort of shadow of Saturn is kind of able to get through a little more clearly, to the ascendant. But anyway, um, you know, maybe like, through the cycle, like, draw on some things that you maybe thought were serving you and then kind of during that Saturn Return is like when you maybe have to, like confront that, oh, this wasn't good for me, or this wasn't who I thought I was. And maybe I need to, to release that. And that can be hard for Saturn to some degree, it's like, once it has something has its grip on something, it's harder to shove it out. Doesn't want to really let go. But then once it's out, it's you know, that's when you build the wall against it in the future. I always like there's like a an appreciation but like, almost like a weird sympathy for Saturn rule people. Granted I have a pretty prominent veteran myself, but like, it's like a flow. arduous process.

Tristan Paylor 37:47

Yeah, with Saturn, everything is a slow, arduous process. But it's I mean, the end result is mastery, right? Like Saturn has such high standards. So like Saturn does not want to settle for less than mastery, and there is no shortcut to mastery. Yeah. And you know, and that can be a quality of these Saturn returns as well as is. I wish I could remember who tweeted this talking about before and after a Saturn Return. And you know, the before is like a very sort of clumsy, childlike drawing of a horse. And the after the Saturn Return is like a, you know, realistically drawn like perfectly shaded anatomically correct horse, sort of like, this is how you draw at the beginning. And this is how you draw at the end. And there's no shortcut to getting there. It's hard work. And it's, you know, often the passion that you felt at the beginning of wanting to master something, you don't feel that passion, with that same intensity all the time. You know, as you start to learn that skill, and gain experience, there are going to be times we're working on it feels like a slog. And Saturn is able to keep doing it when it feels like a slog where you know, maybe the benefits would be like, Yeah, this doesn't feel good anymore. It's not fun anymore. That's I think where Saturn gets its staying power is that it's willing, you know, if if your the skill you want to master is drawing, you know, and you start off, you know, not being able to draw super well. You've just got to put in those hours and there are going to be long, long hours where it just feels like a chore and you want to do anything else. You're like, Oh, I just I want to play a video game or like go eat something like this is boring. I don't want to you know, my wrist hurts. I want to do this anymore. So I don't keeps going through it. And that's how it gets that end result.

Kyle Pierce 39:37

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Keep some philosophy of sort of elective adversity is like maybe one of the most positive ways of working with Saturn in his chart. I know it's almost like a like what you were just saying it's like yeah, doing it over and over again, that sort of refining and purifying. Think of like a metalsmith or something Like just kind of pounding away at that sword, like sharpening it and like, doing it over and over again, especially with that Mars opposition, you know? Yeah, I don't know I like I don't want to get like overly like sunshine and roses about this far off future Saturn Return, but I don't know, it's like it's like already sort of like adopting that that mentality of like preparing for the next battle. It's like she think of like, I wish I could think of like the really specific movie example I'm thinking of, I can't even like think of it in a specific movie, but and I've seen the character before of like, you know, that veteran from like the last war that spent the last 30 years preparing for the next one, because they were caught off guard last time. And by the time the next war arrives, they're souped up with you know, homemade, like body armor, polished and refined and like their swords are, you know, super sharp and shiny and like, they're just like, decked out and ready to go to battle. You know, that's kind of what that makes me think of keep my beat, just spend the next 2030 years like preparing for the next showdown. And then when it comes, be like so prepared, they'll just like slay it. And it'll be like, Oh, that was it. I went.

Tristan Paylor 41:14

I mean, I could definitely see that being the case. And you know, as you know, I am certainly predicting that it's, you know, he's gonna have his, his loyal partner by his side. And we, you know, we're gonna have a beautiful home and, you know, money and all that good stuff. Because I have no, I have no stake in this at all.

Kyle Pierce 41:39

Yeah, no, let's make another very similar chart. So I'm, you know, of course, I have a stake in predicting positive outcomes for everything in the future.

Tristan Paylor 41:52

Absolutely, what you can expect from your next Saturn Return?

Kyle Pierce 41:55

Yeah. But I mean, they both actually, even like the seventh house ruler is similarly situated. Where in Keats, it's the moon. And it's, you know, it's in the eighth house, but it's has a very tight trine with Jupiter. In the fourth house. It's like mitigating it's, it's like the air breathing hose on the the diving bell. And it's also all of them at four degrees. Well, the midheaven still flying actually. It's like within range. So I mean, the moons like square the midheaven. To definitely makes the moon a little busier. It's got kind of like mitigations on both ends.

Tristan Paylor 42:35

Should we maybe get into what's actually going to happen astrology wise? Yeah. Yeah, during this Saturn Return, we've been building up to I think we got a good sense of what of what Saturn is trying to do. And Keith Shara here, you know, it's trying to give him a sense of self and livelihood and also really everything else because it's involved in every other part of his life. And, you know, giving him that, that edge that allows him to see things through even when they're, they're unpleasant. Yeah, you know, that's, that's what Saturn is trying to do here. And, you know, will will Saturn succeeds. You know, well, this the Saturn Return be, you know, mastery, will the the fruits of Saturn's labors, you know, be ready, ready to harvest? I'm gonna say yes. Because I know, Keith and B. There's really interesting coincidence that a couple of really interesting coincidences that will happen astrologically during the last year of his Saturn Return.

Kyle Pierce 43:39

Yes, you've only glanced a little bit at the beginning of it. So I'm curious what you found the amp.

Tristan Paylor 43:43

Yeah, I didn't spend as much time I know you looked at the chart for when Saturn actually ingresses into Sagittarius next, which will be on February 21 2044. So everyone can look forward to that. It literally

Kyle Pierce 44:00

just dipped its toe in though. It Retrogrades back out pretty. Pretty quickly. Like it's there for less than a month. I think it's only in like the very first degree of Sagittarius. Right? But then it like be in earnest. Leave November. No way. Halloween of 2044 is when Saturn gets into Sagittarius for for good. That's too funny for that whole cycle. And mercury will be kind of a an escort for Saturn, that Halloween Mercury up in Scorpio like 29 degrees to beginning and then quickly jump into Saj it's actually moving very fast because it's about to go retrograde. So it's like almost like mercury doesn't want to leave Saturn behind. And it's retrograding back through November and December 2044.

Tristan Paylor 44:57

So I love this for to read sense. One is that Keith and I just moved into a new house that he purchased last year. A year ago tomorrow actually the house closed and we moved into it on Halloween of 2020. So I think it's kind of neat that the his second Saturn Return will also begin on Halloween. This is turning out to be a special and symbolic day I think for him. Yeah. And the other reason I love it is that mercury is the psychopomp of astrology and Mercury is the guide between realms, you know, Mercury straddles day and night. sleep and wakefulness life and death. It's

Kyle Pierce 45:42

totally who you want escorting you through a transition.

Tristan Paylor 45:44

Yeah, so like it there's some symbolism there of you know, having a guide like you're beginning, your Saturn Return, but you're not beginning it alone, or you're not getting it, whether it's some kind of insight into what's about to happen. And you know, what you should do walking into it, you know, Mercury is going to act as that wise guide to the beginning of this new stage of life.

Kyle Pierce 46:12

Yeah, yeah. And the mercury is at stations at two degrees of Sagittarius to go direct again, while Saturn is at like four degrees. So it's like, it's like right with Saturn, and then Venus catches up with both of them and they make like an exact conjunction with the moon actually to the moon. Like December 17 16th, the Saturn Mercury, Venus and the moon will all make a conjunction in Sagittarius. The sun will be around, but actually they'll all be just outside of the sun's beams. So I don't know it's like a very accompanied Saturn.

Tristan Paylor 46:49

Yeah, it feels welcoming. It feels like you're walking into your second Saturn Return to like an audience you know, you're you're walking into it with support like everyone's kind of come to see you to see how far you've come and say Welcome back to Sagittarius Saturn, how have you been like

Kyle Pierce 47:08

Jupiter will be an Aquarius to seven degrees Aquarius so it's like actually pretty close sextile with Jupiter, its ruler the actually mutual reception with Saturn and Jupiter.

Tristan Paylor 47:23

Yeah, it was looking at what the sort of major transits would be. That might affect Saturn. And two of them are really nice one is that you know, Jupiter will be in Aquarius in in 2045 It will be like exactly sextile case Saturn. So you know, sextile is a nice, supportive aspect. And Jupiter is you know, sort of like a benefactor. So, you know, whatever sort of transition you're going through if you're closing a chapter and entering a new one if you're you know, entering starting a new project or you know, finishing up a project I feel like you know, both of those that sort of edge between the ending of a project and the beginning of a new project is very relevant when you have both first and 12th house symbolism connected to your Saturn Return and in either case, you know, whether you're you're ending something or beginning something new or doing a bit of both you know, having Jupiter in your corner is certainly helpful as Jupiter is like you're here resources here is you know, good advice here connections you know,

Kyle Pierce 48:46

can't help but like think of Megan's chart like this is kind of her Saturn Return to Yeah, but it just looks like a very prepared Saturn like came in with all this like, company and help

Tristan Paylor 48:58

Yeah. And like people want people want to help which is kind of nice because I feel like Saturn in the 12th house ruling first especially in a nature and also in in Keith's chart Saturn is retrograde you know, there can be a bit of symbolism there of having to do stuff alone, you know, like having to rely on yourself not not being able to rely on other people to you know, partner community with you in order to accomplish certain things. And you know, that being able to do stuff independently can be a great strength but it can also be lonely and difficult and it's kind of nice that for the second Saturn Return, there's all this kind of company and support, you know, going into it. Yeah. Like maybe you know, maybe you don't have to go at all go go it all alone or do it all independently and you know, maybe you can do some of your Saturn stuff with it. help from other people?

Kyle Pierce 50:01

Yeah. Sort of like, looks like letting people in on like your private 12th House world. Yeah, that's

Tristan Paylor 50:08

true too. Or it's sort of like maybe learning that lesson of, you know, oh, I don't have to do it all alone. And then you know, slowly learning to let people in more and more, and let yourself rely on people more and more, you know, learning to count on other people, and not just yourself and like, be able to trust that they will keep their word, you know, they'll keep their commitments to you, and you can fall back on them. You know, being able to do that more and more over the course of the next 30 years, you know, maybe there will be a bit of a payoff when you reach that that point.

Kyle Pierce 50:42

I mean, that kind of ties into with Venus, some being in the fourth sign from Saturn, and he's chart, it's like, being there for support. Almost think of like, she just seemed to, like, show up with people a lot is like, you know, like, the ruler of their, if their first house is a monolithic and it's like overcoming something that can look like, you know, somebody being a dick. Most time people don't like to be dicks, you know, most people, you know, might look at that, and like, it might look more like, just being worried about about hurting, like, I want to hurt Venus, you know? So maybe, like, keeping itself, you know, tied up in the 12th house. So that doesn't like hurt anything. But then like learning that like, well, Venus is there to support me and I don't, you know, have to hurt Venus. Right? Like, maybe I'm not I'm not so bad. And I can accept, you know, to help it's being offered.

Tristan Paylor 51:35

Yeah, like, I'm not, you know, a burden on other people, or I'm not hurting other people by accepting their help. Like, it's actually it's a tough lesson for all of us to learn, I think is that like, people genuinely want to provide help. And it's easy to feel like a burden. But it's actually a way like you support people by receiving like being receptive is a way that you support other people and make them happy because they want to give to you

Kyle Pierce 52:10

yeah, definitely don't hate I don't hate the Saturn Return at all.

Tristan Paylor 52:15

Cal is predicted I do not hate it.

Kyle Pierce 52:17

That's high praise for a night chart Saturn Return, actually, like

Tristan Paylor 52:21

it's I don't hate it. Yeah, I don't hate it. I think my my favorite part of this Saturn Return is I've you know, been building up to the, the last year when Keith is 59 years old. He will enter a 12th house perfection year. So, you know, for those who are unfamiliar with the timing technique of annual perfections it is just moving one house per year, every year, and that house is highlighted and whatever planet rules that house is called the Time Lord. And you know, that planet is supposed to be extra important that year. And any planets that are in that house are also important. So during a 12th house perfection year for key if Jupiter rules the 12 so Jupiter would be a Time Lord and Saturn is in the 12th as you know, we've covered so Saturn would also be a Time Lord. So both Jupiter and Saturn are sort of the they're they're sort of your guiding stars during Age 59. And, you know, that will be during it's just so neat in that that you know, at 59 You have a 12th house year and a Saturn Return for anybody is interesting because the 12th house is very Saturnian in quality but especially if you have a 12 o Saturn, that sort of coincidence. And then it's the last year and the 12th house is closure like it's just so it all ties together really beautifully and then at the same time, Jupiter is going to enter Aries which is where it is located in which river 1020 46 So Keith is going to have a Jupiter return at the end of his next Saturn Return during the year when both planets are highlighted. So the Jupiter return will begin in 2046 like just a few days before kids birthday and then it will end in 2047 when just after keep turned 60 So for like you know that whole two year period. Jupiter is also going to be really thematically important and Jupiter is in the fourth house in case chart which has to do with home and Family and real estate, which, you know, Keith just bought a house. So, you know, my, my harlotry is a well formed, yeah, my hope is that you know, there's a little bit of, because it's, it's interesting, like, Keith is really really good at construction and renovations and repairs, at least very, very, very handy. So he's able to, you know, buy like fixer uppers, and actually turn them into something of value and do all of that on his own, you know, without, without a lot of help, right, which is actually, I'm realizing what I'm saying now, what I've said before and how they go together. Which is very, like, I kind of feel like that sort of relationship with real estate is actually a little bit Saturday, right? Where it's like, you know, you take the situation, that's not ideal, and that's going to require a lot of work from you and is going to, you know, in order to save money, having to do a lot of that work yourself instead of hiring help. That's a very Saturn process. And, you know, maybe the Saturn Jupiter return coinciding is symbolic, of, you know, some of that hard work, being rewarded. You know, maybe maybe having your dream house or, you know, being able to sell the house you've been working on for many years and you know, settle down and in the place that's going to be your forever home. Suddenly, I feel like something around, you know, the work that you do on homes because Jupiter is so tied up in that fits with the astrology here.

Kyle Pierce 56:47

Yeah, I think it's funny that both of our partners have Jupiter in the fourth house and they both own homes. Like that, which is not a super easy thing to do. You know, in your early 30s Not

Tristan Paylor 57:03

not especially not and even maybe like when people start but especially right yeah.

Kyle Pierce 57:08

Yeah, I mean, I know I'm like Megan get them to get into some of that real estate.

Tristan Paylor 57:13

Yeah, cuz I guess you know, she's gonna have something similar happen when she's in her late 50s She might have the Saturn Jupiter return simultaneously.

Kyle Pierce 57:23

Yeah, and they I mean, they are diurnal so little little extra that's

Tristan Paylor 57:28

true maybe well, maybe that you know speaks to you know kid kind of having to do it on his own a little bit more and oh yeah, definitely want to have a nice place like he's got to make it you know, he can't just like buy like a ready made, you know, this, this house is perfect and doesn't need any help. It's like now he's got he's got to build things from the ground up, he takes a good skeleton, takes a good foundation and then builds it into something worthwhile.

Kyle Pierce 57:58

Now, I'd say that in Megan very similar it's just you know, things find their way to her.

Tristan Paylor 58:06

That makes sense with the day chart being you know, a little a little more easy, a little it's a little less do it yourself when you have a when you're dealing with Saturn and Jupiter who are both daytime planets, they're a little less do it yourself in a daytime chart than in a nighttime chart, they take a little bit more work from you. You know, yeah. I have a chart for May 25 2046 which is a little bit after the Jupiter return goes exact. And it is the second time that the Saturn Return goes exact. So that's another interesting quality of Keith's upcoming Saturn Return is that Saturn will be retrograde during that return. So it will go exact like it will reach the exact degree it was in when Keith was born and then it will go backwards and then revisit it so will actually go exact three times over the course of Keith's next Saturn Return. So that's another sort of there's some interesting symbolism there which might be a little bit of you know, like getting getting so far in a project and then you know, having to go back and redo or certain things or review them and then somebody not having to get it perfect Yeah, like you'll have you'll be able to maybe you know maybe trial and error will be a bit of a characteristic of this Saturn Return like you don't have to have everything right the first time you know, you're gonna have a few chances to get it right. Well, the the chart I have is for the second time it goes exact, which will be during Mercury in Gemini is making an opposition Yeah, yeah. And so this this day, May 25 2046. Is Saturn going exact. Jupiter was exact a few days prior. It is the 12th house here I feel like this day is kind of like the peak, you know of the whole Saturn Return it sort of or it's maybe like a good microcosm for the whole for the themes of the whole Saturn Return it really kind of like both FinePix in the fourth. Yeah, so not only will Keith be having his Jupiter Return On this day, but Venus is going to team up with Jupiter, you know, during this whole phase and Venus will be going through Keith's fourth house as well. So again, connecting to home houses, real estate, also, you know, family and private life and stuff like that. Mars is going to be opposing them. Because of course, when your chart is Saturn ruled, nothing can just come perfectly easily. There always has to be some kind of wrench.

Kyle Pierce 1:00:51

I almost feel like you wouldn't accept it if it was,

Tristan Paylor 1:00:55

but that's yeah, that's the thing. Like, would you want it? You know, would you it's like we were having a conversation earlier about the sun in Aries, which Keith also has. And, you know, one of the things that makes the sun in Aries exalted is that it thrives on the challenge. It's like no, like, it tells me that something is hard, and it makes me want to do it more. Yeah, so you know, that Mars Mars throwing, throwing an opposition at the nice planets, you know, at the sort of peak of your Saturn Return there is, is not necessarily the worst thing, you know, if you're the kind of person that like, wants something to be interesting, and actually, like require a lot of you and like require you to is you have to act skillfully. When the malefics get involved, they test you they test how skilled you actually are, you know, they Mars kind of tests your reflexes a little bit. So, you know, Mars is gonna test, you know, whatever, whatever you're building in your fourth house. At this time, you know, Maurice is gonna kind of talk about a foundation, shake it up, maybe yeah, maybe just enough, you know, to prove to yourself ultimately, that you have what it takes to make that project work. They also, you know, I picture things like, when when we first moved into this house, and I think Mars was going through his fourth house, or mine, I can't remember now is going through somebody's fourth house at the time, and we all broke down, you know, there's gotta be, there's gotta be something right that, but and that, you know, that can also be where Mars is useful. Because there's, you know, sometimes there are problems that we don't see with a situation or with a project, and Mars kind of comes along and makes the that problem visible before it's too late, you know, before it's like, you know, you're, you're not in a good position to be able to fix it, or having to fix it at that time is going to cause an even bigger problems because of the timing of it, you know, so, it might also be that, like, there's a little hiccup in the project you're working on, and Mars is going to be that, that sort of light shining on it to indicate that, hey, you know, this, this needs to be worked on before you can continue, which also kind of fits with the whole Saturn retrograding through this whole Saturn Return and kind of having to like go back over things a few times to get them right.

Kyle Pierce 1:03:13

Yeah, make sure you, you know, do proper repairs on your flying skateboard before you, you take it for a spin on May 25. of 2046.

Tristan Paylor 1:03:23

This one This day is really fun, because, you know, Keith also has Mars in Gemini in the sixth house in his chart, which like all the planets in his chart is being affected by Saturn. And the Sun and Mercury will be in Gemini, on this date. Yeah. And so there'll be transiting over top of cliffs Mars and opposing case Saturn, kind of, you know, bringing the sun especially in in the sixth, you know, kind of bringing some light and I think like that, that transit seems especially useful to me because, you know, Saturn is working on a project when there's a Saturn Return going on Saturn is at work and, you know, Saturn can get kind of tunnel vision sometimes. So, you know, Saturn is in Keith's house kind of like hyper focused on whatever it is that you know, it's trying to accomplish and Keith's 12th house and not paying attention to what's going on in the shadow house and the opposite house right. So the sun, you know, just carrying that very basic symbolism of light and visibility transiting through the house opposite to where Saturn is might be kind of drawing Saturn's attention to things that it hasn't been paying attention to because it's gotten tunnel vision so that could be like a useful transit. All right, well, our conclusion is that key Saturn Return is going to be wonderful. He's gonna have his loving partner Tristan by his side and his good friend Kyle. And you know, he's gonna have to astrologers on hand to, you know, tell him what What the stars are advising him to do at every turn. And you know, you're gonna have a Jupiter return at the end of your Saturn Return. How cool is that that sort of like, I mean, symbolically that really feels like the reward at the end of a long journey. So hopefully that's what it actually will be

Kyle Pierce 1:05:17

like, in the past return to imagine Keith being returned. Yeah, that's

Tristan Paylor 1:05:22

right. Well, he met me during a venous return. So obviously, his venous returns are the best because I'm awesome.

Kyle Pierce 1:05:31

Well, and that's trying to limit how long we spend on each of these questions. But I'm like curious now. What synaptic cycle would you like to look at like the synaptic venous return for for night chart penises?

Tristan Paylor 1:05:48

That's a very good idea.

Kyle Pierce 1:05:49

Yeah, it's kind of like the Jupiter Return Of The Night chart. But I'll let you do that as a special gift for for Keith.

Tristan Paylor 1:05:58

Yeah, I mean, he's, he's gonna have to get to get into all the you know, nitty gritty minutia of what's going to happen during his next Saturn Return. You know, he's probably going to have at least one astrologer if not two on hand to obsess over it because astrologers you know, our loved ones are the people we get to be around the most. When it comes to looking at, you know, how astrology lines up with somebody's life, like there's nobody better than yourself and your immediate life.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:32

All right, well, um, so our um,

Tristan Paylor 1:06:37

it's funny, we have yet another question about the 12th house. I know it always everything's always.

Kyle Pierce 1:06:42

There's always a theme with our our questions.

Tristan Paylor 1:06:47

But also just our show, in general, the whole theme is just the 12 house.

Kyle Pierce 1:06:51

Probably just to steal the show down to talking about the 12 house and Saturn.

Tristan Paylor 1:06:55

Yeah, only ask us questions about Saturn in the 12th house. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 1:07:00

This episode of astrology hotline is brought to you by Newsela. If you're anything like me, you'd like to stay informed on what's going on. In fact, paying attention to current events, and watching how they correlate with transiting planets is a great way to learn astrology. But as you might know, it can be a bit of a struggle to find time to actually sit down and read all the latest articles, but not anymore. Thanks to news li news Li is an audio app for iOS and Android that picks up web articles from the most trending topics on the web at any given moment and reads them to you in a natural human voice. Liberating those busy thumbs and eyeballs of yours for you know that other stuff you got to do. But the first time in the history of the internet, the web becomes listenable. So say goodbye to copying articles and pasting them into Bonzi. Buddy, just browse newsleave For articles from topics of your choice and start playing. And that's not all with newsletters. You can explore trending podcasts from over 40 countries. Now, I know you're probably asking, but Kyle, does it have my favorite podcast astrology hotline, you better believe it does. All you got to do is download newsleave free from www.newsleave.me. And to top it all off, you get a one month free premium subscription by using promo code astrology. 2021. That's astrology. Zeros instead of O's working. Stop scrolling, start listening now on the show. All right, so our second question comes from Katie skate his question. If we accept that the sun slash Saturn represents the father and the moon as the mother would having both in the 12th house indicate absent parents, whether emotionally or physically. So excellent question, Katie. Love the specificity, specificity.

Tristan Paylor 1:08:55

Specificity, specificity, I

Kyle Pierce 1:08:56

like specificity better, but yeah, specificity, like specificity. Yeah. So it becomes very interesting question sort of built into it to some degree is, you know, that we want to overcomplicate it, but but to To what degree do we accept that the sun slash Saturn represents the father and the moon as the mother? What would you just say on that, that first chunk of it? Tristan,

Tristan Paylor 1:09:22

that's a really, really good and concise way of putting it. Yeah, I have the same question. So I think the thing that's that's tricky with the sun as father and the moon as mother is, you know, a how gendered and gender binary things can be in astrology you know, that can be that binary doesn't fit everyone. It doesn't fit everyone's life and so it can't always be accurate as a description of someone's life. You know, not not everybody has two parents. Not everyone has, you know, a mother and a father. or some people have two fathers, you know, some people have non binary parents, some people have, you know, a single mom raising them or a single dad, like, there are so many circumstances. And so it gets really complicated when you use, you know, the moon as a significator of the mother and the sun or Saturn is a significant matter of the Father. Because you have to ask, like, how well do those line up in every circumstance and I what I tend to use as an interpretive principle, I tend to look at the moon as being like any parental or caregiving figure, regardless of gender, or, you know, like, I find that tense because it's the moon is our experience of being nurtured. And, you know, how, how we learn to take care of ourselves. And the first people who teach us how to take care of ourselves are our primary caregivers as children. So you know, even if, if it's a situation where, you know, someone has a mom and a dad, and I would still look at the moon for both parents, and even to some extent the sun, because the sun talks about, you know, our experiences of authority, and our parents or caregivers are also our first experiences of authority figures. So, you know, sometimes one parent takes on more of one role than the other, one parent might take on more of the solar role, and one parent might take on more of the lunar role. But, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't always line up, as as neatly as traditional astrology. Makes it sound.

Kyle Pierce 1:11:38

Yeah, this is one of those cases where I would really want to know a lot more about the person who owns the chart, and even you know, the roles of their parents, I guess, to figure out, you know, to what degree does the sun represent the father or, or the moon, the mother, because I think on a certain, like, basic level first of all, first of all, I'm I'm very similar Lee to you, just in the moon is like, where I would just look for, like, the upbringing, you know, the fourth house, and just kind of how everything's like relating to each other, the moon, sort of, like the foundation of that, and, you know, the mom, the mother tends to have like, a, an inherent biological role with that, you know, who gives the body like, who creates who's who's grows the body and their body, the mother does. So it's, you know, maybe will tend to be a little more emphasizing mothers, but outside of that, yeah, both parents can definitely show up in the moon, and definitely as the mother as well. Because, especially nowadays, those roles definitely overlap, and are going to, you know, it's gonna vary a lot on like, the cultural context of the person. Which means even kind of recognized in a traditional astrology is that, you know, you got to think about, like, you know, what are the, what's the cultural background, what, you know, is the norm within this group of people this person was born into. So, I mean, it's not always strictly the son, as father, like, like you were saying, so, um, you know, the gender norms are maybe not as gotten a lot more flexible. I think we're sort of in this longer process of redefining them. And, you know, like, for me, as a parent, I, maybe it's like, your hands are rising, but I, you know, I feel like I play a very Moon role in my son's life. Right, and a bit of a sun roll to mean the sun. And, you know, a bit of a Jupiter rule sometimes to, like a think that, you know, your parents can kind of play all those roles to some degree. And in fact, they're probably going to play a lot of them interchangeably. But I guess, yeah, I do centered around the moon, and maybe the ruler of the fourth.

Tristan Paylor 1:13:55

And that's another, another sort of their sort of two levels to finding, you know, a person or circumstance in somebody's chart, you know, there's the planet that's traditionally associated with it. And then there's the house that rules that topic and the planet that rules that house. So in the case of parents, although the sun and moon might be planets that are associated with parents, in a person's birth chart, their fourth and 10th houses specifically represent parents and so the rulers of those houses would be the significant matters. And I sometimes find in my own practice, that the planets ruling the fourth and 10th houses actually line up a lot better with what somebody's caregivers were actually like, than the Sun and the Moon. Yeah. Where I tend to find you know, the moon still always carries that general signification of you know, what was your experience of caregiving and nurturing and how do you take Take care of yourself as an adult. The fourth and 10th houses seem a lot more specifically to talk about, what were the parents like? What did they do for a living? What were their personalities? Like? What was their parenting style? Like? In what ways did they, you know, influence their child's values or ambitions and that sort of thing.

Kyle Pierce 1:15:23

And I mean, it makes sense, kind of, like psychological, sociological level, you know, those being very important houses that will say a lot about what you do in life, and how well supported you know, your activities are and all that, and a lot of that has to do with the way you were brought up.

Tristan Paylor 1:15:38

That's interesting. When I when I have, you know, a question about somebody's parents, the first place I look is to the rulers of the fourth and the 10th. Floor, I look at the sun or the moon. And I do find, you know, if the fourth house traditionally represents the father in the 10th house traditionally represents the mother and again, you, you know, you've run into that issue where, you know, real life is not a binary, doesn't always work out that neatly. But in cases where there is a binary, I do find that that lines up pretty well. You know, like, if I look at my own chart, like the ruler of my fourth house, is a lot like who my father is, and the ruler of my 10th house is a lot like who my mother is.

Kyle Pierce 1:16:20

Yeah, I in to some degree, there's a interchange, like I can sort of see both in both. That's true,

Tristan Paylor 1:16:28

too. Yeah. Yeah, I can definitely see that.

Kyle Pierce 1:16:32

In the like, yeah. See some things about the moon that are like, okay, yeah, yeah, that sort of, like, gives me like a general overall vibe or whatever. Yeah, I guess the sun less. So. The sun, I ended up almost like, reflexively looking at less. Um, but I mean, it also you know, just thinking of like, the ruler of the seventh house, right, when you're looking at, you know, relationships, the ruler of the seventh house, it also shows up as a lot of different people, you know, people like be very close friendships as well, business partnerships. And the parents are interesting, because they can play a lot of different roles, in that they play like the parent role. There's a lot of different expectations that are placed on parents in different societies and different, even like different socio economic groups, you know, and actually, mean Astrology can be pretty decent at finding things like that was kind of interesting, like looking at a lot of ancient texts into like, dorotheus lately, and he has this whole like, section of his book that deals with the parents and the upbringing. And they, like they're very, they were very focused on like, how do you find out if a person is a slave or not? And, you know, that's not was is like, directly translatable to today? Right. But you can apply a lot of those same principles. Because, you know, what is that what had been a slave and not being a slave mean, to the ancient Greeks? I mean, it was a socio economic marker. Right. But, and those are the things that were like were important to them. And, and those are things that are important to us now, that we would maybe judge by different standards, but we also are maybe a little more focused on things like, you know, the emotional availability of a parent, which maybe wouldn't have been as emphasized back then. So, you know, measuring for that. So maybe like the the, to address like the overall question, real quick. There's almost like a simple answer to it. Is it? Yeah, the, you know, having both of those planets in the 12th house, does potentially indicate that it's like, one thing that it could indicate is, is the absence of parents or being either emotionally or physically, or just like the two that was like the ruler of the fourth and the 12. Two is like the relationship with the parents declining in some way throughout one's life.

Tristan Paylor 1:19:01

Yeah, it's definitely one of the potential ways that the 12th house shows up, because, you know, isolation and hardship, our 12th House themes, but it's far from the only way to alto symbolism can show up connected to parents. I mean, you know, we talked a lot about sacrifice and service, in connection with the 12th house, just you know, going over a very 12th house, the chart, the first half of this episode, because every every episode we do comes back to the 12 house at some point in some way. Yeah, sacrifice and service or other themes of the 12th house and, you know, just poking around looking at an example charts for people who have, you know, whether it's the fourth house ruler, or the sun or the moon and the 12. You know, I see a lot of stories of people whose parents had those things Humes present in their lives in a significant way, like they had been through a lot of hardships or, you know, I've been through a lot of suffering themselves. Even if you know, the parents were not absent, the parents were very present. But the parents were, were going through or had gone through something very difficult. Or, you know, they were working in a field of sacrifice or service in some way, like I was looking at. An interesting example of someone with the moon in the 12th house is Gabriel Garcia Marquez, who was a writer, a very famous writer from Colombia. And he was actually raised by his grandparents. So there is some symbolism there of absent parents and that, you know, his parents were working on opening a pharmacy, I think it was and had to move for work and ended up, you know, having him raised by his grandparents, his maternal grandparents. In his grandfather was actually a colonel, he was a veteran of the the 1000 days war. So there's, you do get that theme of absence, although there wasn't an absence of caregivers, you know, he did have primary caregivers as a child. And one of them was someone whose life was marked by a sacrifice and service in a really meaningful way, you know, it's a big part of his identity. So there are lots of, of different ways that can kind of play out a lot of the examples I was looking at, as you know, like your parents work in, in the service industry, or your parents are veterans or, you know, that kind of stuff as opposed to the parents. We're not, we're not present. One thing about his example that also stood out to me is that if you use derivative houses you can locate, you know, grandparents and aunts and uncles and all kinds of relations in a chart. Oh, yeah. So using derivative houses, you know, if we assume that the 10th house represents the mother. And Mark has was raised by his maternal grandparents. The fourth house from the 10th, would be his maternal grandfather, and the 10th house from the 10th would be the maternal grandmother. And so both the moon as well as the significator of his grandfather, are in Aries in the 12th. House, Venus rules. Oh, yeah, his first house, so his first house would signify his maternal grandfather. And that is in Aries in the 12th. And his grandfather was very much not absent. He was in fact, the person who raised him and had a really big influence on him there with the moon. Yeah, yes, right there with the moon. So it's like, you know, a nurturing grandfather. And in the absence of his parents, he had a nurturing grandfather. And the Venus is also a significator of caregivers, as well as the moon. And then they're in Aries. And a tiger sees the colonel like he was just he was known as the colonel. So it's, you know, you're imagining is like gruff veteran who's, you know, it was he's playing that caregiving role for his grandson.

Kyle Pierce 1:23:32

Yeah. I believe that's actually, um, like, in dorotheus, almost verbatim to some degree was like, you know, if the moon is in one of like, the bad houses or whatever, it's like, the native will be left to die of exposure. But if it's like, with one of the fortunes, you know, it'd be in a sphere, or Jupiter, then it's like, they'll be raised by somebody

Tristan Paylor 1:23:51

else. Oh, that's Wow.

Kyle Pierce 1:23:55

Now, in this case, it's way less extreme. It's, you know, he wasn't he wasn't like abandoned, to die. So like, you know, his parents were trying to sort of store or whatever. And like he had to, you know, be raised by his grandparents for a while.

Tristan Paylor 1:24:07

Yeah, that's very, very spot on. It's, it's cool. has specific ancient astrologers got? Yeah. And you know, how well it can line up even though, you know, the circumstances they were writing about are a lot more extreme. Yeah. You know, the circumstances most of us are growing up with in the 20th or 21st centuries.

Kyle Pierce 1:24:28

Yeah. But it's also interesting to just how complicated the systems that they came up with to identify things like that, like what the social socioeconomic status of the parents were, you know, which parent would die first with the parents stay together or not? It's actually something that they tried to figure out. It seemed like they really leaned on like the triplicity rulers of the sector lights for that sort of thing. But also reading like, reading from the sun for the Father, and reading from the moon for the mother.

Tristan Paylor 1:25:01

like looking at the picture, the triplicity rulers of the sun and the moon to kind of see what yeah, how long each parent's life would be.

Kyle Pierce 1:25:10

Yeah. Or you know, what their condition was, like, if the ruler, if, you know, the first TriCity ruler was in was falling from an angle or something like that, or, you know, just in a bad position, you know, it's not great start, I guess for right upbringing overall. But the second one was well placed, you know, that would improve over time. That kind of thing. And it's like, it's really, what are those extreme examples that have been good for, it's almost like want to create, like a list of all like, the statements they make, and just add, like a plus or minus for each one, you know, like, does this improve? This improves this, this, you know, makes it worse. I don't really use the triplicity rulers a whole lot. But I think it's a good thing to consider. Or even just consider the principles behind it, like Katie's question like, you know, the moon and the sun being in the 12th house by itself, like, Yeah, I mean, that that can indicate that. I don't know, I do find it interesting that, like, my, my son has the moon in cancer. And while I, you know, I am the dad, right, I'm still seeing myself as playing like, a significant Moon role in his life. And, you know, just reading from the moon in his chart, you know, the cancer becomes my first house, and stuff like that. Scorpio is his first house, and it's my fifth house.

Tristan Paylor 1:26:34

Oh, that's really interesting. You've got your your fifth house, and the fifth house represents children, because Scorpio, and your child has Scorpio right now. That's beautiful.

Kyle Pierce 1:26:47

Yeah, but it's, you know, I, it's something that I'd want to play with more, because that's not gonna be everybody. Everybody's kids charts, you know. But it might say something about the role you're playing in your kid's life. Being, you know, are you playing more of a moon role? Are you playing maybe these roles too?

Tristan Paylor 1:27:07

Yeah, I mean, that's the other thing, I think, to really get a good insight into what your chart says about your caregivers, you need to look at their charts and look at yours and compare them and see, because like, sometimes the significations are not as obvious, you know, until you see the relationship between the two charts. And you see how like, things get kind of handed down, and families like, placements appear over and over and over again. And then you see, well, I have this placement in this part of my chart. And all of these other family members have this placement in these parts of their chart. And it's sort of like you can see how that influence was handed on to you and what area of life that influence effects are. It's like I've got, you know, 10 family members with Mars Retrograde in Scorpio and I have Mars Retrograde in Scorpio in my sixth house. And, you know, I recognize these these traits in common in my family members. And that tends to show up for me when it comes to health and work, you know, inherited these these health issues for my family members or, you know, whatever it might be,

Kyle Pierce 1:28:13

yeah, it's nice to use some of those like turning of the wheel techniques to like, pull up significations in your chart of like family members. And then when you actually have access to those family members charts, and getting to like, sort of compare them. It can be interesting, because you do often like pull it you'll find things that like overlap. But it's also like being described in your chart from like, one angle, and maybe the angle that is maybe most significant to you personally. But it's like not the one that ends up being significant to you personally, that may be more significant to, to like an objective viewer that maybe like somebody else would be paying attention to. Technology can be weird like that. Yeah, that's true. But yeah, it's also like an area of interest of astrology that I have like put a demoted it for whatever reason, to some degree, not that I don't think that it's important. I guess I'm just like more interested in looking at the chart from the angle, what are we dealing with now? What are we looking at in your life? And like, what is your agency in it? And I guess, some people, you know, their parents play bigger roles in their lives than than other people in their ongoing lives and, you know, sometimes hidden like Jupiter in your in your fourth house or something like, yeah, he might lean on your parents more for stuff that might be more of a source of support in the long term.

Tristan Paylor 1:29:30

And I think that's, that's also a potential interpretation for planets in the 12th house that signify the parents in some way is, you know, sometimes your parents just don't end up being super significant, you know, in vanilla life. I mean, your peers also have a huge influence on you when you're growing up. I was actually I was looking at a couple of charts for people with the sun and the 12. One of them is Janis Joplin was born with Sun in the 12th house. And, you know, there was no her father wasn't absent or anything like that. But she, she had the sun in Capricorn in the 12th. And it was interesting because he, he did seem like very sun in Capricorn in the 12th, in a way, just like, I found this interview with him from 1970, just after she had died. And you know, just the way he talks, like, he just seems like such a regular dude, like, nothing, you know, not looking, not interested in being remarkable, you know, not like very, very different from his daughter who was like, very strong personality. very rebellious, like he, you know, lives in a small town, and he fits into his small town, conservative culture and, you know, works at his day job and, you know, tried to do a good job raising his kids. And, you know, at the end of the day, like, you know, he wasn't absent from Janice's life, but she was very much absent from him. Yeah, but No, her She went a totally different way, right.

Kyle Pierce 1:31:04

That's definitely a very clean manifestation of the 12. House. And but it's not always like a super negative one. Granted, we don't know all the nuances involved in their relationship.

Tristan Paylor 1:31:16

Yeah, that's the trouble too, with looking at celebrity charts, especially when it comes to their relationships with family members.

Kyle Pierce 1:31:23

Yeah, that could indicate something like, you're just you just don't you're not very much like them. You know, you're very different than your parents. Yeah. And it may not be that they didn't do their job or the EU, you know, you hate them. It's just like, oh, yeah, those are my parents. And like, now I'm gonna go with my wife.

Tristan Paylor 1:31:37

Yeah. You have a very separate identity from them. Yeah. Yeah, that's what this like. And it's like, it's, you know, it's a place that isn't super visible. Another chart I was looking at was the chart of divine, the famous drag queen who was in like, a bunch of John Waters movies. And he had the son in the 12th. House, ruling the 10th. So, you know, there's potentially significations of parents going on there. And his parents were super financially supportive to the point that like, it was a problem. Like they were constantly bailing him out of stuff. Yeah. And, yeah, like, he would charge them for expensive parties that he was holding, and he'd be writing bad checks and stuff. And it's just this one over basically his whole life. They indulged his every whim. You know, they even like supported him starting businesses that ended up, you know, going nowhere. So, finally, he charged them for a major car repair. And like, after, you know, years and years, and years and years of this, they finally had enough, and confiscated the car and said they weren't gonna keep financially supporting him. So he retaliated by coming over to their house, collecting his two pet dogs that were living with his parents and disappearing, not seeing or speaking with them for the next nine years. Instead of actually visiting his parents or calling them, he would send them postcards from all over the world, just basically telling them I'm fine, but never left on return address. So it's sort of like his parents were certainly not absent from his life. But he decided to make himself absent from his parents like, yeah, and also just, you know, it was another case of like, he was like, a rebellious counterculture, strong personality, performer kind of person. And, you know, his parents were just sort of, like, conservative, like, run of the mill, regular people. And they just I, you know, maybe they just didn't have a lot in common. You know, it's like, they, you know, maybe there's a bit of an attitude, like, they're there to support me financially. They're not like my friends, you know, they're not people that I'm close to. And when they don't fulfill that purpose anymore, then I'm just going to move on and sort of give them the bare minimum by letting them know I'm okay. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 1:34:09

Yeah. And I mean, you get that sort of cross purposes, sort of signification of the 12 isn't necessarily like the parents serving cross purposes from you. Maybe you're certainly cross purposes from them sometimes or Yeah, or, yeah, or they're just something that just in that relationship, it's not quite, it's not a really a smoother or stable one. It's not balanced or like, mutually supportive, or even like the parents to some degree, enabling maybe some some behavior that wasn't really serving him.

Tristan Paylor 1:34:39

Yeah, yeah, there's definitely enabling happening in his case, which is kind of, you know, the, the opposite of like, you think of being absent. But it's still problematic behavior. Yeah. And I don't so in Katie's question, she asked about Saturn as well because I No, Saturn does get used as a signification. For the Father, sometimes I never use it harsh

Kyle Pierce 1:35:06

one. I never do either. Because not everybody's dataset. Yeah.

Tristan Paylor 1:35:09

Like I know, it's used in the calculation for the lot of the Father. I think it's the Sun and Saturn that are used in that calculation. So like it goes way back this connection between Saturn and the father and I guess, I don't know, maybe in a culture where your father is someone who's like really distant and just authoritarian?

Kyle Pierce 1:35:34

Oh, yeah. Well, and like, it's the disciplinarian and sets the rules, you know, that traditionally, yeah, but traditional notions of what the dads role is, like, sure, but I don't think that that's everybody's experience of their dad,

Tristan Paylor 1:35:47

that's definitely not the role, I would want my dad to play in my life, you know, the role of like, harsh reality checks. And like,

Kyle Pierce 1:35:56

there is some of that, that you have to play as a parent. And that's the thing is, like, just from the experience of being a parent, you do end up playing all those roles to some degree, like more one than the other or whatever. But it's also like, you're not going to be like taking over all those planets, either. Because, like, multiple people playing those roles. Yeah. And all that. But I mean, yeah, you do have to be sad on to some degree. But I feel like, you know, for me personally, and I think a lot of people I know, their moms were a little more Saturn than, yes, actually, I would think of it's almost like more of the stereotype now is where the dad tends to be more lacks. And the mom is a little more of the rule setter, but I mean, there's so many different variations of that, I guess I just don't go in with the assumption that the person had the maybe Western 1950 standard of parents, a baseline of parenting in their life.

Tristan Paylor 1:36:46

Yeah. And I find, like, you know, Saturn can certainly represent your early experiences of authority figures and of boundaries and of, you know, being told no, you know, those experiences of learning that there is a line that you cannot cross, yeah, at some point, you know, you you put your hand on a hot stove, and you learn that you don't put your hand there, that that is what Saturn teaches. And that is a role that caregivers have to play, but I don't, I don't see this specifically a father thing, like, I don't think that that's a gender thing. I think that parents and you know, potentially older siblings, and teachers, all play those roles. In growing child's life of being like, you know, you have to go to bed at a certain time, you have to get a certain amount of sleep, you have to eat, you know, you can't just eat whatever you want, like Saturn has those lessons of like, you actually can't just eat ice cream, three meals a day and expect to feel okay, and be healthy and you know, be able to do all the stuff you want to do, you've actually got to eat a balanced diet, and, you know, the people in your life who enforce that are playing the role of Saturn for you as a kid. And that can be mom or dad, or, you know, any any kind of parent and you know, potentially other other caregiving figures in your life as well.

Kyle Pierce 1:38:10

That's actually perfect. It's like a perfect way of maybe explaining how I tend to approach the chart is that this is your experience of Saturn, you know, and different people played that role. Some of them were your parents, some of the more of the people, not necessarily going into the chart, like looking exactly for the mom and the dad, looking for your experience of that planet.

Tristan Paylor 1:38:31

Yeah, that's also that's a good way of looking at it. And it's more like the overall experience of that. And then from there, we can kind of narrow it down to you know, yeah, was it? Was it your first grade teacher? You know, was it your mom? Was it you know, your older sibling? Like, was there an experience that really stood out in your memory as sort of like teaching you the lesson of Saturn? Yeah, or a person who really played that role for you? And, you know, it is it is fun to look at, like, I do like how sort of literal and specific the topics of the houses can be where it's like, the third house is siblings, you know, maybe, maybe Saturn rules your third house or is in your third house. And that says something about, you know, maybe your siblings were people who taught you, you know, what happens when you eat ice cream? Three Meals a Day? Yeah, that's not a good idea. Right? Yeah. It is. It is fun to look at that. And like, you know, see, hey, does that actually say something about, you know, those specific family members or whoever, but yeah, I tend to move more from the general to the specific rather than the specific to the general.

Kyle Pierce 1:39:41

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, it's like it's when you're trying to like impress somebody. You can pull things out like that. But derivative houses, which can be like really fun, but it's like, I'd almost rather like work with the client and figure out where that's coming from a little bit more because like, you know, the third house can be siblings. It's also like neighbors Have like around in your day to day life, uncles, aunts.

Tristan Paylor 1:40:02

It's just who's around? Yeah, cousins. You know, classmates peers at school. You know, the person who worked for the library teachers? Yeah, it's just a catch all for like, who was just like around and you had no choice but to be around them. And they were just like, a fixture of your everyday life. Like, there's kind of the backdrop of your life, those people are all in the third house.

Kyle Pierce 1:40:25

Yeah. So I mean, you're still kind of guessing. If you're trying to, like, impress someone with a really specific thing.

Tristan Paylor 1:40:33

Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. I mean, you know, like, it's, it's easy to kind of go, well, well, what's most likely to be? You know, yeah, people have siblings, you know, those relationships are going to stand out a lot more than, say, the bus driver, who also lives in the third house. So, you know, you might be more likely to kind of hit upon something significant if you talk about somebody's siblings, as opposed to their bus drivers. But, you know, you might also have had, like, a really important bus driver, or a family member who was a bus driver, you know, like, so many ways that can play out and it's, it's less, it's fun to try and make those really specific statements, but it's not necessarily like useful, you know, yeah. It gives people that kind of like, spooky feeling, which is kind of fun. But it doesn't actually, like provide anything of like value in terms of figuring out, you know, what does my life mean? Like, what is the deeper meaning of my life? And how did those experiences fit into it? And I guess, you know, if you've got a planet, like Saturn that does, you know, represent those early experiences of boundaries. And it's in the 12th house, like maybe that could represent something like, you know, people who are supposed to be role models of that were, you know, maybe upset, or maybe just not very good at making it visible or obvious, because the 12 is kind of a shadowy place where maybe they were too subtle, or they weren't, you know, really like on the ball about teaching you those lessons. You know, maybe there's a bit of like, you had to teach yourself those lessons with Saturn in the 12th. House. Yeah. Or it can't or those lessons came from unlikely places, you know?

Kyle Pierce 1:42:16

Yeah. Yeah, I guess. It kind of, I guess, maybe it's being saved to some degree, but like, it just becomes sort of like it, they the people in your life. Were doing the raising, this is how they sat around.

Tristan Paylor 1:42:31

Yeah. And I think, I don't know, I'd much prefer to start with that. And then work my way into the specifics from there. Yeah, for sure. Mental, so like, I don't want to jump into unless somebody is specifically coming to me with a question where they're like, I have this situation with my mother. And I want to know, and my relationship with my mother is like this. And I want to know what my chart says about it. Yeah, unless somebody is coming to me, like very specifically defining who the person in their life is and what role they play. I don't want to, you know, like you said, make assumptions. Like, I don't, I don't want to in a chart reading, be like, your dad was like this, and then find out that like, you know, actually, I was raised by a single mom, and you know, now I

Kyle Pierce 1:43:17

feel like that ends up being almost like the most those stories of like, like, oh, well, you know, I got this reading. And they told me that my dad abused me or whatever. Like, No, we didn't, yeah, I don't think you're gonna be able to nail down the dad quite, is definitively using the Sun and Saturn.

Tristan Paylor 1:43:35

It's, and it's fortunate that we can't, you know, like, it's, it's fortunate that I can't just look at the ruler of my seventh house. And I know exactly, yeah, like, how boring would like if I looked at the ruler of my seventh house. And based on that information, I knew exactly who my partner was going to be, how long the relationship was going to last, you know, like, what, what they're gonna look like, what their personalities gonna be like. And like, the whole point of falling in love is that like, you know that there's a mystery, you're getting to know somebody new, and you can never fully know them. Like they're gonna continue to be mysterious, no matter how long you know them, right? Like, it's a constant process of realizing who somebody is over and over again. estrellas you can't replace that, you know, so you can just look at a chart and be like I asked, your dad was definitely absent or definitely, you know, was like a bookkeeper who, you know, spent a lot of time at work and likes like to watch cricket when he got home like, you can't. Yeah, you can't look at a chart know that you actually have to get to know people in real life for shortcut.

Kyle Pierce 1:44:40

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's probably mean it's just, here's some themes in that area of life that are important.

Tristan Paylor 1:44:48

And often they're kind of the way they line up is kind of spooky. Oh, yeah. Then you, you find out the specific reasons why that resonates so much. And that's part of you know, the excitement of it. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:44:59

for sure. Well, yeah, I'm sure we can go on and on and on about, about

Kyle Pierce 1:45:09

the ways that Sun Moon do and don't represent parents, but I will say just real quick, it is funny how often, you know, the moon's condition will say very specific things about about the mom. Because I know a lot of I just know a lot of people that were raised by their dads and it I find it interesting because I see the moon in different conditions, that sort of point to that, but it also, you know, yeah, I mean, I guess. Okay,

Tristan Paylor 1:45:39

stop. Now. Now I want to

Kyle Pierce 1:45:41

just like, I guess, the absence of, of a mother's, is maybe hits a little harder, I think, for people in general. So, I mean, that might be more I think, that has a lot more to do with like cultural and social reasons, but, and some biological ones, like definitely, you know, early on bonding and stuff back to me, that's a whole can of worms, because you know, I part of my experience as being a parent was like accepting the ways in which I am and them not important. Actually, all like we did get off on a whole thing

Tristan Paylor 1:46:11

and let us let us stop let us be Saturday and stop. Where are the mutiple? I know we need it. And this is a pattern for me is my my partners are very, very mutable consistently. So because I cannot because we need someone to finish things is what Keith came up and was like, I got a vacuum and thank God he did that. Yes. The mutable Saturn came up and the mutable Saturn in the 12th house came upstairs and said, I'm very gently

Kyle Pierce 1:46:42

I'm gonna come up with a signal system with Megan. Like when I need her mutable planets don't help me. Rapid just told me to look at him just told me Yeah, actually, yeah. Those Those Saturn people, you know, they're good at saying stop.

Tristan Paylor 1:46:58

They are very good at it. I appreciate it. Well, this is you know,

Unknown Speaker 1:47:02

thank you Saturn moon people.

Tristan Paylor 1:47:03

Yes. Thank you for everything that you do. For those of us who will Saturn people, actually, yes. Especially, especially mutable Saturn in the 12th house when they need the most people with mutable sign, Saturn's in the 12th house, make the world go round. They are like, you know, the, the little screws that hold the airplane together. So the whole thing doesn't just fall apart mid flight like that is what mutable Saturday. It's all those people are to this world. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 1:47:30

Totally. All right. Yeah. That will wrap it up. What do you have going on Tristan,

Tristan Paylor 1:47:36

I got the usual stuff going on, I am still doing our long Birth Chart consultations over zoom, which you can book for $50 an hour, through my website, bad sign astrology.ca. And I have an Instagram account and a Tumblr account, where I blog about astrology, as you might expect, and both of those accounts are also named bad sign astrology. What about you?

Kyle Pierce 1:48:09

The huge, you know, book a consultation with me at Kyle Pierce astrology.com. much stuff in the pipeline still actually hate this part of the show. Because remember, all the things that that I haven't finished yet will eventually be done that you need

Tristan Paylor 1:48:24

a mutable sign in person to come and fix for you.

Kyle Pierce 1:48:28

I know, to bring Megan in on my projects.

Tristan Paylor 1:48:33

Oh, pets? Yes, please, please send us the birth charts of your pets. I recently found out that we have like an approximate birth time for our dog. And we've been working on rectifying his chart. And I think I've got a pretty good chart for my dog. And I would just love it if we could do an episode where we interpret people's pets charts for them. So if you have a pet, and you have a birthday for that pet even better if you have an approximate birth time. I know it's usually hard to get an accurate one. But you know what time of day they were born, please send them along and ask us questions about your pets. Yeah, so

Kyle Pierce 1:49:17

you want to definitely want to do a Pet Special. And so please send in your pets birth charts, because that would be fun. And just so adorable.

Tristan Paylor 1:49:27

Exactly. We want more cuteness on the show, and a lot of time talking about the 12 pairs. Yeah, and Saturn and as much as I love them. They're not always very cute. Yes, we want a little more cute.

Kyle Pierce 1:49:43

Yeah, we want some cute kittens. In fact, I actually specifically want the return of a baby kitten that was born like recently, and I want the picture to get excited. Yeah, I could use some more kitten pictures. I really like kittens.

Tristan Paylor 1:49:58

Yeah, if you have pictures of your pets that you can send along with their birth charts. That would be super.

Kyle Pierce 1:50:04

Yeah. So do it. Don't be shy. Also, you know, if you like the show, leave a review. Rate us all five stars. You know, doing that stuff really, really, really, really like for real helps new podcasts such as the astrology hotline, so we definitely appreciate that.

Tristan Paylor 1:50:25

Thank you to Katie and Keith, yes for your excellent questions that were super interesting to dive into. And I love that somehow in some unplanned way. Every show the two questions we do are thematically tied in some way. So it's weird. It's funny how that works out. Thank you both for that.

Kyle Pierce 1:50:48

Yeah, thank you, Keith. Thank you, Katie. And with that, we'll call it a day and thank you for listening. I'll see you next time.

Tristan Paylor 1:50:58

Bye for now. If you have a question about your birth chart, or about astrology in general, that you would like to hear answered on astrology hotline, email us at astrology hotline pod@gmail.com.

Unknown Speaker 1:51:31

Astrology hotline is as war. At war, with un-answered astrology questions. We have the weapons, we have the training, but to achieve ultimate victory, We need your help. I want you to take out your phone. Open up Apple podcasts and subscribe to astrology hotline. crush all five stars and rain down a righteous review of furious satisfaction. I want you to open up Spotify. Subscribe to astrology hotline and launch one high speed thumb of flaming death at that five star rating. And I want you to find the gnarliest most insidious astrology question you can find. Email it to astrology hotlinepod@gmail.com So we have slaughter it mercilessly on the show. Together, We can conquer astrology, one question at a time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai