Why Pluto?

Tristan Paylor 0:06

Hello and welcome to astrology hotline, the podcast where we answer your questions about your birth charts about everything you want to know about astrology. (all your burning questions. Every one.) Exactly. I am I'm Tristan and hosting with me is Kyle Pierce. (Hello.) How are you doing today?

Kyle Pierce 0:29

I'm doing really, really wonderful. I am loving every minute of Mars in Scorpio, even the their mind i i love all of it. I literally love all of it. Please don't hurt

Tristan Paylor 0:44

me. Mars, please. Yeah, nothing. Nothing bad to say

Unknown Speaker 0:47

at all. Nothing bad to say I love Mars.

Tristan Paylor 0:51

Friend through my fifth house where my ascendant ruler is.

Kyle Pierce 0:55

I'm pretty sure I'm actually I think I'm gonna rewrite astrology because I'm convinced that Mars is a benefic. Always just delivering the goods in the sweetness.

Tristan Paylor 1:07

I mean, if the goods are in the form of like, mild mania, then I've got that. Yeah, I've got that in spades.

Kyle Pierce 1:16

Yeah. Yeah, the mania. I like it. Thanks, Mars. Can't wait for that opposition with Uranus. Anyway, how are you interested?

Tristan Paylor 1:26

I am in the same boat as you are really just experiencing you know, the only to Mars emotions which are over enthusiastic happiness and rage. There's just those two.

Kyle Pierce 1:45

I'm thinking of this series of books that I read. Man's gonna kill me what they're called now. Sure what now on Netflix. It's not like, Anglo Saxon was like raised by Vikings. But the books are all just like about this dude fighting all the time. And he's always talking about battle joy. Like, oh, yeah, once I like, stab the first dude, you know, get under a shield. And I just, you know, stab him in the balls or something. And I'm, oh, yeah. Now the battle goes on. And then it's and then then it's madness. And he just slaughters everyone. And that's like his favorite thing. And I think that's what that is the joy of Mars. That's just the joy of Mars. Yeah, that is a kind of joy. And you know, you don't necessarily have to stab someone to get it. You can have that battle joy when you're cleaning. I find. Yeah, when you're in the right

Tristan Paylor 2:34

rager mode. You're on a mission? Yeah, gotta be in the heat of the moment on a mission. And then you get that frenzy. Oh, yeah. For some reason, you know, despite being a total softie, one of my patron deities is Odin. And his name like the root of his name, actually means like ecstasy or frenzy or madness. Oh, yeah. Which, you know, can refer to like, Odin is really connected to the arts and to poetry and inspiration. But also, you know, he's a warrior God and the frenzied emotions of battle are also his. So that sort of ecstasy could refer to artistic inspiration, or it could refer to, you know, going absolutely berserk on the battlefield. But it's interesting that like, it is the kind of ecstasy and I think that is, when Mars feels good. It's that sort of ecstasy that takes you outside of yourself. Because you're just doing something so intensely. Yeah. And potentially dangerous.

Kyle Pierce 3:36

Yeah. I think it's the unrestricted like intensity of Mars that that's where you get actually it's like, what when I hear the word exultation, I think of like, I have like, you know, I have Mars in Aquarius square and a bunch of Taurus planets. So, you know, obviously, I, I have a very specific type of metal that I like that only comes from Finland, and to you know, it's very refined Torian specificity, or Aquarius, you know, nobody else can like it, but me, but it gets you in this particular mode, where I just think of the word exaltation, and it's like that it's the Mars. I don't have an exalted Mars but feels exalted when when you get that right, you get that double bass drum going, and some fucking killer classically inspired riffs. Anyway,

Tristan Paylor 4:28

happy Mars in Scorpio,

Kyle Pierce 4:30

every one ever. Yeah, happy. Everyone. I think we have a show to do today are

Tristan Paylor 4:37

sort of on on the subject of Mars. We have a question that has to do with Pluto, who has stolen a bunch of Mars is significations really, Pluto's become, you know, interpreted as the higher octave of Mars? Like Mars dialed up to 11 As if you need to dial Mars up anymore? Apparently we're like no, the Mars setting in Australia. You didn't go high enough? Yeah. So we're going to crank it up a little bit more. And we're going to introduce Pluto.

Kyle Pierce 5:07

Yeah, or you know, I mean, that's Pluto is like it's either all the way up to 11 or 20. Or like negative five. Yeah, it's

Tristan Paylor 5:15

just it's not there. Like, where'd Pluto go? All or nothing? So, our first listener question today comes from Haley. And they want to know, why Pluto, why use Pluto and astrology at all? Why? You know, it's, it's astronomically speaking no longer a planet. You know, it's, it's a little dwarf planet. It was only very, very recently discovered, you know, it's not part of the long and enduring tradition of astrology It was discovered in 1930. So it's, you know, less less than 100 years, it's been in the astrology game. So why use it, Kyle? Yeah. What is Pluto? What does Pluto have to give to the tradition of astrology?

Kyle Pierce 5:58

Well, first of all, I do have answers, you know, because I'm an expert, right? But I, I eat Pluto for breakfast, lunch and dinner every day. But I wanted to share in that questioning state for a second because seriously, why? Because, you know, you have planets, like Pluto that were discovered before Pluto. But Pluto as we you know, we did discuss this in the the asteroids episode, that series was discovered, and was considered a planet long before Pluto. In yet, once we found Pluto, we just sunk their teeth into it and just incorporate it into astrology immediately. It's a very good question. And I am excited to dive into it.

Tristan Paylor 6:46

I think maybe one of the things that Pluto had the something that was advantageous to Pluto in terms of being very quickly incorporated into astrology. And in a really enduring way is just the timing of its discovery. Because in 1930, was the time that sun sign astrology was born as well like the 1930s, not the year 1930 specifically, but it was in the 1930s that sun sign horoscopes started appearing in English newspapers. And you know, astrology had been through a bit of a low point through the 18th 19th centuries, you know, this. And then, in the early 1900s, you had Alan Leo, who, you know, started popularizing astrology a little bit more and kind of rethinking astrology for a new era and making it a little bit more accessible. Because at the time that he was working in the early 1900s, fortunetelling was illegal in in Britain. So he kind of adapted it, you know, where astrology wasn't just about fortune telling, and made it so that, you know, there was sort of a way like it was kind of a loophole, there was there was a way of getting around it by making astrology. More about these sort of like esoteric or metaphysical subjects and less about, you know, trying to deterministically decide what was gonna happen in someone's future. And then, in the 1930s, you know, you had the rise of astrologers, like Evangelium Adams, who really popularized astrology and like magazines and newspapers and in pop culture again, so it was kind of like a ripe time for Pluto to come on the scene. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 8:41

I find when it comes to timing, I'm glad you brought up timing because the world was in a very interesting place at that time. And I kind of want to read just a little excerpt from the first kind of major publication about Pluto. From Fritz, Fritz Brunhilde Huebner Fritz,

Tristan Paylor 9:02

I'm gonna struggle to pronounce his name.

Kyle Pierce 9:05

Yeah. I really Huebner is pretty, pretty cool name. But um, this is he wrote in 1930. Literally, was it 1929 And I think 30. But Pluto was discovered. So

Tristan Paylor 9:18

this, I think it was discovered in 1930. Although I don't know, it's entirely clear, because I think like the announcement was postponed because somebody's involved in the discovery and a birthday or something. I don't know. I don't remember the whole story, but I think Fritz Brian Hubner published his book on Pluto in 1934. So as a few years after this one is like 1933 or 1934. Alright,

Kyle Pierce 9:55

so the excerpt that I want to read comes from Pluto, new home. Rising for a Lost Horizon, astronomy, astrology and mythology, which is a collection of different essays from different astrologers different times about Pluto and its significations. And, at least in this book it says that this excerpt from Fritz Brune Huebner is a reprint of material from 1930. It's kind of just an example of the early take on Pluto, which I guess you know whether it was like a 30 year or later, I guess I just find it interesting that like right out of the gate, astrologers we're trying to put Pluto into an astrological context. And for its rune Huebner wrote Pluto is connection transition passage, bridge boundary, the end and at the same time, the beginning it unbinds and binds it brings revolutionary upheavals. It is the turning point, Pluto leads from torpidity to revival, from one condition of consciousness into another, from one being and to another being from this life into the life hereafter. For this reason, Pluto has been called in mythology, the Lord of the realm of the dead, the realm between the astral world, Pluto is the overthrow of the old sensing the new, the end of the old world and the ascent of a new spiritual epoch. It is therefore not and your chance to Pluto was discovered on the borderline of two ages the turning point of human evolution if Uranus is the first stage of the coming Aquarian Age than Pluto is the second stage, Pluto leads out of death rigidity, a cramped state through the stage of fermentation, preparation and development to revival, enlightenment, elevation, and clarification. Pluto will lead humanity out of the mechanization and mechanical technology of our times into an epoch of provocation, resurrection of magic and creative power. So I find this excerpt interesting. And it becomes pretty clear reading it that mean he's pulling all of this from the mythology behind Pluto. But when you consider the time period, around 1930, and building up to that 1920s, even, we're really talking about the post World War One world, the interwar period between World War One and World War Two. And this was really a period where collectively is like humans, we're kind of recovering from this huge trauma that World War One represented, it was the first really encounter with modern warfare, mechanized warfare, in personal warfare where, you know, people were living in trenches. And it was like a truly mechanical experience of just, you know, it wasn't about strategy or about, you know, one person winning out over the other one or anything that was just who could pump the most human bodies into a space with the most firepower at the right time. And it was an extremely dehumanizing experience for people. I mean, really, it was pretty messed up. And people were really kind of losing faith in not only like government institutions, and kind of the sort of values that like patriotism that people use sort of cling to, when fighting wars and joining up the military, but really, it was kind of the first experience of like, how apocalyptic technology can be, like the the realization that you know, we have the ability to destroy ourselves and each other on a scale like never before. And, you know, you have Uranus he's kind of referencing how Uranus its whole idea of an Aquarian Age and we had kind of like a fetishizing of technology for some time before World War One, and kind of post World War One. A lot of people were like, I don't know if I like this, you know, the JRR Tolkien Yep. That those ideas are all throughout Lord of the Rings of like mechanized impersonal beings like the the orcs, you know, it's kind of a representation of like the dehumanizing quality of industrial society. And you know, then you have like the elves and like the simple habits, you know, the country folk who are the good peer people, they're fighting against this industrial oppression. And you kind of see how like,

this guy rune Huber really jumps on, you know, oh, now we have the symbol of this way that we feel about maybe the the revolution of Uranus and now like, oh, Pluto is here to liberate us from the evil evil technology that is really enslaving people or humanizing people. And I think that you do get a lot of the significations of blue Don't really been pulled out of that idea out of this experience that was very new for people around this time. That was one.

Tristan Paylor 15:10

No, that was incredible. I yeah, that you completely nailed it, I think and I'm sold on Pluto now because of you. Well, this

Kyle Pierce 15:19

isn't like pre nuclear to.

Tristan Paylor 15:21

Yeah, it was. So yeah, in 1942, nuclear fusion was achieved. So Pluto kind of heralded this new and that's, you know, something that, you know, folks listening who are already quite familiar with astrology, we'll probably be familiar with that, because astrologers do bring it up a lot. And it is one of the ways that we derive meaning for the newly discovered celestial bodies is by looking at well, what was going on in history at the time of their discovery, and what was going on in history shortly after they were discovered, like that discovery sort of Herald, a new era for humanity. And in the case of Pluto, you know, nuclear power was developed shortly after, yeah, Pluto's discovery. So that was kind of one of the big new things that we were grappling with, that Pluto became symbolic of. And also, I think that's where you get some of Pluto's symbolism of representing very tiny things because of the the atomics and yeah, the unseen, you know, it's not only the underworld, but also things that are very, very, very miniscule

Kyle Pierce 16:28

one in Yeah, and I guess, you know, keeping it to the question of like, why, like, these are like, really intense feelings, I think, for people, like, you know, we're all kind of used to like consumerism, and how dehumanizing it can be to be sort of reduced to the label of consumer, we're kind of used to finding ourselves in our identity in that context. But like that sort of industrial language, which people have been struggling with for a long time, I think during the Industrial Revolution, but seeing how nasty it could get, there is like a lot of language about in Saudi strategic like that transformation, you know, or transmutation. In even now, still, it's kind of idea of why he would have used it at the time like mutation, like, you know, this idea of evolving into like a super person, sort of transcend, that like the shackles of really sort of distorted power mechanisms that industrialization facilitated, and it gets kind of hard, and you can see how it's like sort of early that like, there's a lot of Uranus language, like revolution. But maybe it's like, sort of like a disenchantment with with Uranus, almost at the time.

Tristan Paylor 17:41

Well, just thinking about in terms of why use the newly discovered planets, I think, you know, what you've been talking about, is a really good case where, for 1000s of years, we couldn't see any planets past Saturn. And then scientific technology advanced to the point where we were no longer limited by our senses. And Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, I think all share some similar significations because they all represent that experience of, for the first time in human history, no longer being limited by our senses, and being able to perceive a world very much outside of the normal. And that is, you know, in my own practice, how I use those planets in interpretation is that these are, these are supernormal experiences. These are confrontations with things that are outside of the usual limits of perception and understanding, and the, like, speed of technological advancement. We almost can't keep up with it. And I do feel fine, you know, planets like Pluto. Yeah, that, you know, in our like, stuff like The Matrix, and you know, all of our, like, stories that we tell in popular culture about like robot apocalypse and stuff like that, where we're sort of, we're afraid of our own power, our own technological power, I feel like a lot of that experience coincides with the discovery of Pluto, and it's being incorporated into natal astrology. And that is that is a use for it is sort of capturing that feeling and capturing its time like capturing this time period, within a chart and how we grapple with those issues that are unique to our time in history.

Kyle Pierce 19:37

Yeah. Kenneth Miller made some really good point about the outer planets and like, when they were being incorporated into astrology, and this whole idea at the time of what we refer to as like spiritual Darwinism. Yeah, that's why idea of you know, the outer planets and you know, even assigning them science Rule, which really is I mean, maybe the the most simple answer to the question is why, why Pluto, it's because because Uranus and Neptune, because even though, through the debate, they ended up messing up their whole kind of reason for it, but they had this idea that like, oh, you know, we have these new planets that had been made possible by us sort of transcending the traditional limits of human capacity, like now we don't need to, we have technology, we've evolved beyond our human limits of our eyeballs, and we can see things far far out in the space. And we should have these outer planets are kind of like an expression of our spiritual evolution as well. And by assigning them, you know, they had this idea that they would find 12 planets over time and assigned them all to each planet would have their own sign, right? They never got the 12. But, yeah, and so you get this, like, your first this Aquarian Age and I actually don't know when the Age of Aquarius idea started. Give me Do you.

Tristan Paylor 21:04

Yeah, I don't know when it became. I mean, we've known about the precession of the equinoxes, which is the concept that the Age of Aquarius is based on for a very long time. Like for a couple 1000 years, we've known about this. But using the precession of the equinoxes to interpret ages of the world. I don't know when that concept was first introduced. I think the idea of like theater, or even just when like the hopefulness, yeah, I think this sort of hopeful Aquarian Age concept is very recent. Yeah, I think that's a modern concept. But I think the idea of there being ages that are based on the precession of the equinoxes is probably an older idea. Yeah. That, you know, the Age of Aquarius has been interpreted in a very positive light as a result of like, the New Age movement and that kind of stuff.

Kyle Pierce 22:03

Yeah. So I don't know, there's kind of like a, because it's taking place over I mean, your answers discovered? I don't know when they started giving your NSS Rodricks. significations. I think we went over this before it was like 1850 or something.

Tristan Paylor 22:16

So there's a really, really good article on Sky script, which I will include in the show notes. Titled When and why did Uranus become associated with Aquarius? Yeah. But, you know, it's not only an attempt to answer that question, but in attempting to answer that question, the author goes over a lot of the earliest instances of astrologers using Uranus in astrology and how they incorporated it and how they interpreted it symbolism. Yeah. And there's even like a little bit of a timeline. But it's interesting is Uranus was discovered during kind of a low point in astrology. So it took quite a long time, I think, for it to become really solidly incorporated in the tradition the way it is nowadays, but like, pretty much right away, like in 1791, there was this obscure esoteric magazine called conjurers magazine that made a connection between Uranus which at the time was called Herschel being in Leo and fires. So there's like the signification, there were a lot of Uranus is in Leo, there are fires. So there people were talking about it and writing about it pretty much right away, but I think took a while. Before it became a staple of the astrological tradition. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce 23:40

it's almost like we started giving signs away to these new planets, or we have a new one, let's give it to a sign like quickly in Aries. That seems like it was kind of in the front. I mean, it was Aries Scorpio. That debate went on for a long time. And I don't think it was kind of accepted, more universally in the astrological community that Pluto rules Scorpio until like 1960s or so.

Tristan Paylor 24:06

And I think the 60s was really when the outer planets hit their stride. Yeah, that sort of counterculture movement, that astrology got swept up in. And I think that's when astrology started to become really popular and become a phenomenon. We know it to be today, because it went through a period between the Renaissance and now it went through sort of a low point where it wasn't very popular. And you know, a lot of cases even illegal to practice. And then in the 60s, you had that counterculture movement, with a lot of alternative spirituality becoming a little more mainstream. And that's when you know, astrology, modern astrology, I think really became what it is today. Yeah, the outer planets were really, really central to a lot of that writing in the 60s and 70s.

Kyle Pierce 24:53

Yeah, and I mean, I don't know intuitively makes a lot of sense to me, because I really was like interested in the outer planets. Oh, I'm like, first getting into astrology, like sort of the kind of the most interesting, or in a lot of ways, like the most relevant to not so much personally. But like the focuses of our of our time, you know, I don't know, like you can kind of get like just listening to the language of a balloon Hoover is, you know, you, you can kind of taste the sort of Great White hope of Uranus and the new ruler of Aquarius and like this transcending power that technology brings, you know, like, we can build a whole new world with the power of technology. And then just the other utter devastation of World War One and post World War One were like, you know, people you see on the street, there are people who their faces have been blown off or missing limbs. And just the kind of utter disenchantment with that experience and like not even knowing what to do with it. Because it really, people didn't know what to believe in anymore, because what had their beliefs gotten them, gotten them, you know, the most horrific experience that probably still to this day, any mass of people I've ever lived, I would say that trench warfare, when you really like get into the grip of it is is really like a hellish nightmare. And I think that like, part of the reason that we scooped up Pluto, so, so fast was like, Okay, here's the thing to project that on. Here's the thing that tells us that story. And yeah, we still use it for that. It may not be as directly tied to technology as much. But I mean, we end up using it for what like, you know, power dynamics, corruption, right? The corruption of the abuses of power conflict on a mass scale. Yeah. And like, really? Well, I don't you know, in practice, when we find that it shows up with with Pluto, but we use it to tell the story of like, really horrific and traumatic stuff, you know, we saved the worst for Pluto, right? Or at least probably from like the 70s. Up until now, and probably still, to some degree now. I don't know, maybe being caught up in like the traditional revival, to some degree, sort of, like, lost my perspective on a coup doesn't scare me before, I don't know. You don't have like, super hard Pluto aspects now.

Tristan Paylor 27:27

Now. But I was. I was I was just thinking about when you were reading Fritz's description of Pluto the whole time, I was thinking that Saturn for 2000 years that Saturn, yeah. And what's interesting, because you know, all those words like boundaries and endings and the boundary between this world and the afterlife or the other world that was Saturn's domain. For you know, the entirety of the Western tradition of astrology. And where I think Saturn and Pluto are really similar is that they do represent boundaries, at least like for you and I, we grew up with Pluto being a planet, Pluto was the outermost planet in the solar system. You know, I grew up in the 90s. So it had not been demoted yet. I was, you know,

Unknown Speaker 28:18

you've seen the magic school bus, you know, ya know,

Tristan Paylor 28:21

that. That's what I was taught. And it was at the outermost reaches of the solar system. And it is also just like, it's tiny and icy. It really like when you, you know, you look at like artists renditions of it, it really gives you that feeling of like, there is no going past this. And, you know, that was the sort of feeling that that Saturn is meant to evoke. And I think what ends up happening is that, like, with technological advancement, we were able to actually see past the boundary that Saturn represented, but our technological advancement does not make us Gods, it is also limited. And so Pluto kind of represents the limits of the advancements we've made. It sort of like the new limit, and the new consequences, it carries a little bit of that, that Saturn responsibility, you know, where we've advanced to a point where, you know, we could wipe out entire countries with the flick of a switch. Yeah. And, you know, the, the great world wars that happened around the time Plato was discovered, were like, you know, this is this is the cost, this is the potential cost and what we're capable of doing. Yeah, you know, our greed and our, you know, conflict with each other limits our ability to use this stuff for the good. And when we try to use it, our own the corruption, our own nature, potentially has these consequences. Yeah. So it's a Serving, it's serving a similar role to Saturn, but sort of like for a new era with with new problems that ancient people didn't have to deal with.

Kyle Pierce 30:10

Yeah, and I mean, that's, that's like where I think that I find Pluto actually kind of shows up, granted, you know, having traumatic experiences will maybe tune you to that sort of, you know, peering down the abyss of human nature. But we're also just kind of exposed to those ideas more, I think, in general, you know, they're in movies, they're in books. You don't have to, like live horror, to, to know, the horror that we're capable of. You get like Pluto's extremes, right? Like, with great power comes great responsibility, you know, you can we can build a utopia or we can create, you know, an apocalyptic wasteland and, but that like thinking and that sort of peering into the, the void of the chasm of human nature, it's, it's like a rabbit hole, you know, there's no bottom to it. The deeper you go, the more you kind of come out the other side, where you know, the more extremely negative and dark you get Mikey kind of confined Utopia on the other end. It's very, I want to say nebulous, because that's very Neptune. Pluto, like, no, no, there is there's a way that Pluto will make you kind of run circles a little bit, or you just kind of like looking for you know, the end of the mystery that, but it never comes. This actually now I'm feeling excited because I remember a conversation that we had a while back about. Like HP Lovecraft Pluto was discovered around the time that HP Lovecraft was writing one of his stories. And HP Lovecraft. I think it's called like The Godfather of horror now. He's very like a niche author until maybe recently. But his whole shtick was this idea of like, cosmic horror, wasn't really so much about like big monsters or big scares, but it was about like, the horror of the idea of like, an indifferent universe, or something just so alien, that that, like, from its perspective, he had these like gods, like Monster gods or whatever, space entities that like, weren't evil, per se. But like, just to them humans were ants. Humans were nothing. And, you know, they could like squash a whole planet of human beings. And it would be nothing to them. And just that idea, really, like, he really like would dive into like, those themes and that idea just how terrifying that is, you know, of the understandable of the unimaginable, you know, what lies outside of what's even possible for humans to experience a really great story called the color out of space. Which the whole story favorite stories? Yeah, I love that story. And it's a color. I mean, they're trying to describe a color that like your eyes that we can't even comprehend. You know, it's just it's a color and it's like, not anything you just make makes you fucking crazy. Freakin crazy. To. To, to look upon it. Things also like poisoning people and stuff.

Tristan Paylor 33:33

Yeah, it was it was killing people. Yeah. But like for it, you know that the mechanism by which it is causing death is unknown and undiscovered, unknowable beyond anything we can comprehend,

Kyle Pierce 33:44

or even the sight word or the Yeah, reason or meaning. It's just Yeah, yeah.

Tristan Paylor 33:49

Well, there's a nihilism to like that horrifying nihilism that like we live in an indifferent universe that is populated with like godlike beings. And there is absolutely no basis whatsoever for our relationship that is possible for us and them to understand each other, there is no basis for communication. So it you know, whereas like, in most ideas of like deities, or supernatural beings, there's a mode of communication by which we can kind of come to terms with each other, you know, we may not ever fully comprehend each other's experience or being but we can at least communicate with the Lovecraftian universe, like there is nothing. Yeah, if you even try to reach out and communicate with these beings, it will just like, suck your brain out through your eyes. Yeah. Which to me is like that's, that's the outer planets is that's the world you're entering. When you enter that realm. When you cross over Saturn's boundary, you're entering into that realm. And then Pluto is the boundary of that realm.

Kyle Pierce 34:49

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's not it's not God. You know, it's not even the devil. It's not, you know,

Tristan Paylor 34:56

can't be good or evil. Like there's no basis for morality even Like, yeah, you can't

Kyle Pierce 35:00

pray to it, you can't make a deal with it. It's just it's utterly indifferent. In that, that's terrifying. And that's, to me, that's like, what Pluto is about. It's those those themes and you know, people can feel like that in society. I think that's a problem of, you know, every society has always had its problems. But there's, I think a industrialization sort of brings that consumerism sort of brings that. Up, where you know, your value to the community is not about you, as a person. It's about you as a consumer, you know, what products do you generate? And what products do you consume? How do you contribute to the economy? That that's who you are. And that, for some people is probably fine. I don't know. You get caught up in it, you can lose yourself in it. But it can also be extremely dehumanizing, and not, it doesn't really feed you. I don't know, there's something hungry about Pluto. But it's like insatiable. And I guess that's another aside that I understand arguments for like, why some astrologers don't even recognize the outer planets doing anything, because you can pull a lot of the significations from other traditional bodies or points like the there's like something kind of North annuity north node about, about Pluto, but also south node, you know, and something kind of, kind of Mars and something, there's even, you know, people talking about like a, you know, weird link with Venus. And you know, Pluto has a heart, you know, obsession and desire. And I think if there there's something that Pluto distorts the things to some degree or exaggerates. But yeah, I don't know, I think that on a basic level, like we needed, we need I think bluedot should have just the right time for us to, you know, use that we need to talk about that.

Tristan Paylor 36:57

Yeah, it's sort of an indication of a conversation that we culturally really needed to have.

Kyle Pierce 37:03

Yeah, it's something we don't really I mean, have a lot of language for I think, either, like, why are people killing themselves? Why are people shooting up schools, like we don't really have language to talk about, we're still figuring out language to talk about like the, the, sort of like existential void that is sort of being created by this rapid evolution, socially, that we're going through, like human beings. 200 years ago, our life expectancies were like 40 years old, I don't know, we were most of us were still farming. You know, most of us still only really saw a couple 100 People throughout most of our lives. We haven't caught up to where we are now. No, we're, we're figuring it out. And I, you know, I, I have Pluto opposing my son and Jupiter, have very beat up on Jupiter. But it's still, you know, it's still there. It's still like, I have I have this, like, great hope for people. But I also see how easily we can mess that up. And I think that that's kind of what we're talking about when we're talking about Pluto talking about the outer planets, these like huge, grand themes that go beyond, you know, your own experience.

Tristan Paylor 38:24

Yeah, they go because Jupiter and Saturn represents a site, you know, they represent things on a grander scale. And, you know, like you're saying, fairly recently in human history, you know, people only knew may be, you know, a small group of people, you know, we didn't have the kind of global awareness that we have nowadays. And I think that's one of the the uses of the outer planets in astrology is they're very symbolic of globally, of global concerns of things that are concerned on a global scale and of our awareness of being part of a global community, and not just not just part of, you know, a society or even part of a single country, but being, you know, connected to the rest of the world. And Pluto in particular, is really good for tracking generations. And I don't think we've really been tracking generations for that long. Like the popular idea of like millennials and baby boomers and whatever I feel like whenever I look at, look up generations, if they get starts at the silent generation, maybe they think it kind of our idea of sort of categorizing ourselves collectively into these chunks of time. On a very, like global scale is pretty recent, and also coincide As with the discovery of Pluto, this is something I want to look into now is what is the history of us tracking these generations? Because I feel like

Kyle Pierce 40:09

no, you're you're right. On it like that. Yeah,

Tristan Paylor 40:13

the silent generation begins in 1928, literally a couple of years before Pluto was discovered. So it's like Pluto's you know, when, when we're starting to track these generations, you know, in in Western society. Pluto comes onto the scene. And then like, weirdly, every time Pluto changes sign, it actually lines up pretty well with the generations as they're popularly defined, like Pluto's in Scorpio, mostly for the millennial generation. And Pluto was in Leo, mostly for the boomer generation. And so becomes this really good symbol of these sort of more like, large scale, collective issues and also larger scales of time. Oh, yeah, we're like Saturn, Saturn is dealing with, you know, like, you have your Saturn Return every, like 27 and a half years or so. You'll never have a Pluto return. Yeah. Oh, yeah, the scale of time is so much larger. So we're like Saturn was our cosmic timekeeper now that we aren't just thinking about individual lives, or the lives of the small community, we're thinking about, you know, the, like, spans of generations, we need a timekeeper that can keep track of longer periods of time. And Pluto becomes really useful for that. So I mean, that's the other function that I use it for. In astrology, I don't use it so much to talk about, you know, events that happen in somebody's life or their personality or whatever. But more about, like, how do you feel about being part of your generation? Like, how do you relate to the idea of being a part of the generation and of the generation you're a part of, you know, what, what is your experience of being a millennial, or being a Boomer and, you know, if Pluto is really prominent in your chart, that might say something about, you know, how you represent the sort of issues of your time that are really relevant to your time, you know, like you can, there are lots of examples of people with Pluto prominent in their chart, who are kind of like the poster children of their generation, you know, like Elton John was one for for the boomer generation with Pluto, and Leo, really prominent in his chart, where he's just like, he really represents a sort of cultural moment for his generation. And Copernicus was another one, I believe, with Pluto, in his first house, sort of, you know, like a huge figure in the scientific revolution. And so like, you know, people who represent these, like cultural generational changes having outer planets really prominent in their chart, they're very, very impersonal.

Kyle Pierce 42:53

Yeah. When it's Yeah, because it's just sort of sweep you up a little bit. But you mean, they also I think, well, you made like an excellent point that I want to make chomping at the bit. I'm excited about this conversation a little bit. You made a really good point about how the discovery these planets tie in how we need these kinds of new timekeepers to track these sort of generational shifts in differences because you don't you didn't really get historically so much of a generational rivalry, some degree or like, you know, oh, it's the it's the fucking boomers fault. Right, you know, those boomers hadn't screwed us over, you know, we would have jobs right now that allowed us to pay a mortgage or something like that, you know, those are just want to say adversarial to some degree. But historically, in traditional astrology, you know, what were the big cycles that you had to track, you had really had the Jupiter Saturn cycle, which actually can be stretched out to 200 years. Because we just enter Yeah, the shifting to air, you know, where the Jupiter, Saturn conjunctions are all going to be taking place in air for the next 200 years or so. And that shift happens about pretty consistently every 200 years. But the sort of mean sub cycle of that is, you know, whenever Jupiter and Saturn have a conjunction, you know, their opposition, but it was sort of part of this ongoing continuous cycle. That was pretty stable. Historically, you know, our progress, technology, technologically, socially, had ups and downs, but we were talking about longer stretches of time, like where it's happening slowly. If you're living in 1500, maybe a little bit in 1500, we'll say 1400. I don't know you're not going to like feel super alienated from the people two or three generations ahead of you. You know, like, you're gonna, you're gonna listen to your elders, because they did the same stuff that you were doing. But now it's happening faster and faster. The people that are in their 70s Now, they're like, they don't even, they don't understand people who are 20 Shit, I don't I don't understand me, to some degree a little bit, I know that

Tristan Paylor 45:21

I'm gap has grown because things change so much more rapidly where you have potentially a lot more in common with your elders in a previous era. But now things change so rapidly that like it, it splits our generations generation gaps are getting shorter and more aware. Yeah, it's like my, my experience is so much more different from somebody 20 years older or younger than me. And that's just getting more and more intense.

Kyle Pierce 45:48

Yeah, I know, I'm pretty much accepted. I'm never going to catch up with technology. You know? Already, my son is seven. And he like just his brain is like wired to technology knows how to like, it just makes sense to him in ways that it never will for me, because while I would say that I better would you call it like your your early experiences of technology existed? Like, you know, we had VCRs right? You had a VCR when you were a kid? Oh, yeah. You had a phone with a cord on it.

Tristan Paylor 46:21

It's the best part of rewatching the X Files is the nostalgia for all the technology I grew up with. Yeah. You know, every, every time I see one of those phones, it just brings me such joy. Yeah, yeah. Like I had that phone. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 46:38

Well, I know, the technology that we grew up kind of with in our everyday lives was not crazy, different from our parents, you know, it was different. Yeah, it was new, but we're sort of like, experiencing this new technology together. Yeah, it wasn't like, so dramatic as it might be like now where, you know, social media, like was getting sort of popular when I was in high school. But now it's like, it's part of your, your childhood. Like, it's, it's Yeah, your experience of childhood is inherently tied to the internet. And we were in the that sort of very early internet period. So like, on some level can relate to that anyway, totally beside, you know, we don't want the, you know, the traditional plants don't really have the same kind of mechanism for tracking that sort of wide disparity that really kind of started around, around the discovery of the outer planets where you started to get like technology really shifting enough in the span of a lifetime. Where life is very much different from the people. You know, if you're if you're at, you know, the kids grown up, in if you're born in night, wait long winded. You were born in 1850. You know, you grew up with like muskets and stuff around and that level of technology, and then you know, if you're at in 1930, you know, the kids growing up, are in just a totally different world than the one you lived in. That really didn't happen before. We don't believe you know, live in not hopefully, in a lifetime.

Tristan Paylor 48:12

Yeah. And I was like, there is a time when you know, you could look at a child and their childhood would not look all that different from your own childhood, even though you're much older. And now you look at a child and you're like, you are from a different planet. Yeah. My childhood resembled yours in like, no way whatsoever. Yeah. I made I made a mistake. It was the last generation that has ever watched the names. The names generations of the Western world begin with the last generation, which was from 1883 to 1900. And those were the folks who became adults during World War One. Yeah, so sort of like was the when you're sort of tracking like the the history of the modern Western world. I feel like Pluto's kind of got its hands all over it.

Kyle Pierce 49:02

Yeah. That I guess maybe maybe that's why I'm so fascinated with I've always been fascinated with World War One in particular, because it is this like, really apocalyptic moment.

Tristan Paylor 49:13

Well, it started when Pluto was in cancer, I believe and Pluto was discovered in cancer, still in cancer when it was discovered. So it's sort of like the aftermath of Pluto's ingress into cancer is when it was discovered.

Kyle Pierce 49:29

Yeah, well, it's something I want to when it eventually comes out the episode of Cosmos which is turning into sow I, you know, so I know that Pluto's real. It's a real object, but I think it does something is this idea for a project? And I'm like, oh, yeah, let's do it about this. And then it turns into, I go down 20 Different rabbit holes, it turns into something way bigger than I had originally intended. Oh, or you know, or I want to just like, This is too much. Screw it. I put a pretty, like I said, a lot of aspects to stuff. But I lost my point.

Tristan Paylor 50:16

One last one last thing I want to touch on, maybe before we move on to the next question, because you know, Haley was asking about Pluto also in the context of you know, it being a dwarf planet. And now we know you know, there are other dwarf planets, because the categories the scientific definitions have changed. So, you know, if, if Pluto is still considered a planet in astrology, there's that question of well, what about all the other work planets? Which is a very good question. Definitely a rabbit hole. We don't need to go down right now necessarily, but are you sure just to just to touch a little bit. I mean, I want to but for the sake of our listeners, we should probably not record a four hour podcast. But one thing I think is important to know is that the astronomical definition of a planet is not necessarily the astrological definition of a planet. In in astrology, a planet is just a wandering star, it's just an object that moves across the background of the fixed stars, it moves through the ecliptic. So you know, the sun and the moon and astrology are planets. They're not astronomically planets by any means. The moon is the moon and the sun is a star. But in astrology, we refer to them as planets because it's just the wandering celestial shiny things as opposed to the fixed celestial shiny things. And, you know, Pluto fits that astrological definition. And I think, you know, astrology is not a, like scientific phenomenon. It's a cultural phenomenon. Pluto meant something culturally when it was discovered, and you know, astrologers whose job it is to look at the sky and, you know, figure out what it symbolizes. When a discovery is made immediately go What does it mean? And, you know, Pluto has not only played a role in our culture through astrology, but just like, you know, when I like we were talking about the magic school bus if you learned about the solar system, watching the magic school bus in the 90s, you learn that Pluto was a planet. Yeah. And that it was named after the god of the underworld, and that it was far away and spooky and cold and small. And so you know, you have all of these like subjective feelings and experiences that you tie

Kyle Pierce 52:37

when you have to create a moment where what was his name? His name, His name? What was his name? Like I knew we shouldn't go on fields. Reynolds Arnold. Yeah, I think that moment when Arnold takes his helmet off, because everybody's arguing and

Unknown Speaker 52:53

all his head at first forget that moment terrifying for my school bus traumatized and it was

Tristan Paylor 52:59

burned into my brain. Like that, that's a cultural moment, right? Like, that's our cultural impression of Pluto and Scorpio experience. That was truly as a member of the Pluto and Scorpio generation that was a Pluto in Scorpio experience and that, so like, whether or not Pluto is devoted by astronomers doesn't necessarily change what it means to us culturally. And since astrology is about what things mean to us, culturally, doesn't necessarily change its role in astrology any, it can still carry on is it has carried on since it was first you know, interpreted by astrologers in 1930.

Kyle Pierce 53:37

Yeah, I guess my going theory for why astrology works in general, and maybe why Pluto ends up working. Aside from us just being crazy and just making it up, because you do but you know, we just didn't need to we throw enough thoughts at Pluto. To give it meaning, you know? Yep. Totally be a holder of ideas and thoughts for us. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. And we didn't do that for other planets that maybe could have had the same potential you know, I don't know.

Tristan Paylor 54:12

Yeah, for whatever reason. And that's I mean, that's something I'd like to do more research on to figure out like, Why didn't series become you know, really important early in in you know, when it was discovered, why didn't astrologers jump on it?

Kyle Pierce 54:26

Maybe that's what series means. being overlooked and bad timing required to have on your midheaven

Tristan Paylor 54:34

and it's on my midheaven to being overlooked Great. Always doing things at the wrong time. And you know, and then Pluto you know, being mean, it's demotion was also a cultural event. And there were actually people who protested it, like I was looking at articles from I think it was like 2006 or whenever it was when the Astronomical Union made this decision, and there were like, literally people at universities carrying signs like sighs Doesn't matter and protesting Pluto's demotion

Unknown Speaker 55:05

for when was demoted now

Tristan Paylor 55:08

to Yeah, that'll that'll be our our next task

Unknown Speaker 55:11

is being overcome by Saturn or something.

Tristan Paylor 55:15

So now you know Pluto also symbolizes starting out, starting out strong and then being pushed into yeah

Kyle Pierce 55:26

maybe we maybe we need to be careful about the things we think about the planets. I don't know maybe the momentum is too big now

Tristan Paylor 55:34

I think the momentum is too big. I think it's totally I mean it's really my I'm not an expert on evolutionary astrology but my understanding is that Pluto is quite central to that tradition of astrology. So yeah, you can't undo something that you know you've given meaning to Pluto has too much meaning for us now. It's it's here to stay. It's with us. And, you know, the other dwarf planets may yet you know become powerful symbols depending on how we relate to them. But we just haven't related to them to that level, at least not yet. could still happen.

Kyle Pierce 56:10

This train of thought is really bumming me out about series.

Tristan Paylor 56:13

I mean, I

Unknown Speaker 56:14

think there's still a lot I just don't relate to you series.

Tristan Paylor 56:17

This is nuts. It's not that potential for series.

Kyle Pierce 56:20

Yes, absolutely. Series is, you know, series actually means huge success and love from everybody. Yeah, everybody wants to be your friend. Yeah. And just the right amount of people want to be your friend to many. series is just everything just right. That's what seriously,

Tristan Paylor 56:41

I like that. I like that a lot. I'll have I'll have that on my midheaven I'm okay with that. Say

Kyle Pierce 56:46

it over and over and over again.

Tristan Paylor 56:48

Yes, serious. This year series is the new cool planet. It's the new edgy planet that everyone cares about. Everyone asks, you know, and they call up their astrologer. They're like I want to know about series of my chart. I want to know what series of my partner's chart I want to know but like other aspects between you know, it's going to be the new Pluto everyone asks about Pluto, because it's mysterious. It's like a cool name. I know Pluto is such a good name as the other thing they really nailed. I

Kyle Pierce 57:17

know Pluto like catch a series. Yes.

Tristan Paylor 57:19

Do soft Pluto's Pluto's edgy.

Kyle Pierce 57:22

We really want to use extreme planets now URIs. Yeah,

Tristan Paylor 57:25

yeah. You know, it's like all the all the stuff that people are interested in when they ask questions about astrology is like the darkest, heaviest celestial bodies you can, you know, people start like learning about the fixed stars. And it's like we just fixate on our goal is like there's this star that represents like de Campbell's demons. That's the one we want to ask.

Kyle Pierce 57:49

Yeah. Which one is going to cut my head off and which one is gonna make me fabulously rich and famous? Yeah,

Tristan Paylor 57:55

those are our two concerns.

Unknown Speaker 57:57

All right. All right.

Tristan Paylor 57:58

We just probably I think we answered. Hopefully, when we started. We could keep going. There are a lot. There are lots of reasons to use Pluto. But hopefully we've outlined a couple of reasons that Pluto's is useful and we should keep it. Yeah, yes. All right. One sort of next question. I'm going to get everything ready so we can knock this puppy out. We're going to knock a puppy out we're going to slaughter this chart, just slaughtered this

Unknown Speaker 58:30

puppy.

Tristan Paylor 58:35

All the violent metaphors we are we are remediating right now. Oh yeah, we are making Mars happy.

Kyle Pierce 58:42

Right now I'm lovin Mars in Scorpio. I feel like oh, this is the energy like I Yeah. This episode of astrology hotline is brought to you by newsletter. If you're anything like me, you like to stay informed on what's going on in the world. In fact, paying attention to current events and watching how they correlate with transiting planets is a great way to learn astrology. But as you might know, it can be a bit of a struggle to find time to actually sit down and read all the latest articles. But not anymore. Thanks to news li news Li is an audio app for iOS and Android that picks up web articles from the most trending topics on the web at any given moment and reads them to you in a natural human voice, liberating those busy thumbs and eyeballs adores for, you know that other stuff you got to do. The first time in the history of the internet, the web becomes listenable. So, say goodbye to copying articles and pasting them into Bonzi. Buddy grows newsletter articles from topics of your choice and start playing. And that's not all. With Newsweek, you can explore trending podcasts from over 40 countries. Now, I know you're probably asking for Kyle to have my favorite podcast strategy hotline. You better believe it. All you got to do is download newsleave free from www.newsleave.me And to top it all off, you get a one month free premium scription by using promo code astrology, 2021. That's astrology, with zeros instead of O's, when you want to stop scrolling, and start listening, now on to the show. Okay. All right. So our second question comes from Jessica. So Jessica asks, I became an engineer and have been working for a couple years, but this career field does not feel right for me at all, doing a great job making lots of money, but unhappy. What does my chart say about this? Well, just I'm very sorry to hear that. That's a rough situation to find yourself in. I actually, like, you know, a handful of people, a lot of engineers, it seems, who kind of hate their jobs, but they love the money. And I guess the first thing that, you know, my I see, looking at Jessica's chart, is just gonna has Capricorn rising to 10 degrees or so. And Jupiter, very close to the ascendant at about 10 degrees. Jupiter has like risen, like right above the horizon, very prominent.

Tristan Paylor 1:01:11

Think maybe when one thing that might be good to mention, because Jessica sent us her chart in a placidus system, that we're we're using whole science. So Jessica, if you're really familiar with the placidus house system, some of your house placements might be a bit different. In our interpretation, yeah. So yeah, bear with us.

Kyle Pierce 1:01:35

Yeah. And just to clarify, yeah, so are the charts that you might be used to seeing that house is sort of divided, based on a different mechanism that we're gonna go into, but then in Wholesaling Houses, we just treat each sign of the zodiac as its own house. So like the Sidious, Jupiter would probably be considered in the 12th house, because it is above the horizon. And it's, you know, on the debug horizon side of the ascendant degree. But we would just use the whole sign of Capricorn as your your first house. So a lot of different house systems. And as you learn more about astrology, I'm sure you'll set a one on one that you like, but hopefully, we make a convert of you. We prefer the the whole sign house system. So other houses have their virtues as well. Anywho Yeah, we'll just give a brief rundown of Jessica's chart. So like I said, Capricorn rising with Jupiter in the first at 10 degrees. Saturn in Aries in the fourth house, ruling the first Venus in Venus and Mars in Gemini in the sixth house, and Sun and Mercury in the eighth house in Leo. And finally the the Moon in Scorpio in the 11th house. We'll just say the outers speaking of the outers, you know, we spent an hour talking about how important they are, but for our purposes, we'll just maybe stick with those.

Tristan Paylor 1:03:04

And also, you know, as as always, for listeners, following along with our interpretations, Jessica's chart will be in the show notes, if you want to look at a picture of it. So you can follow along while you listen, it will be there for you

Kyle Pierce 1:03:18

know, yeah, though, the first thing that popped out to me was the Jupiter in the first house in Capricorn. Would you what caught your eye? Kristen,

Tristan Paylor 1:03:29

that was the first thing for me too, is Jupiter and Neptune, in Capricorn in the first house. And, you know, kind of carrying over what we were saying about the outer planets. You know, Neptune is one of the generational planets and I really like Austin Copics interpretation of how the outer planets relate to particular generations. And you know, he looks at Neptune as being sort of like the dreams and ideals and visions of that particular generation. And, you know, as

Kyle Pierce 1:04:01

I said, we tend to be disillusioned as well.

Tristan Paylor 1:04:04

Yeah. As as a member. As a member of the Neptune and Capricorn cohort myself. You know, I laugh when I see Neptune in Capricorn because it's, it's an odd place for Neptune for a dreamy planet, in you know, a sign that's very much about survival and resourcefulness and practical concerns. And so I always think, you know, for for those of us who are part of the Neptune in Capricorn generation, most of us are millennials. Our sort of generational dream or vision is just like job security you know, other other generations may or madman Yeah or Mad Max. Yeah, exactly. That's, you know, that's our vision of although we're all into the wasteland Yeah. And that's, you know, that's right up in the in the first house. there. And you know, Jupiter is also like, I mean, Jupiter and Neptune are both dreamers Jupiter is about faith and optimism. And so we have these, like, sort of dreamy planets, but in the sign of Capricorn, which is pragmatic and not really about dreaming big, and you know, Capricorn, it's like, it makes sense, like the time of year, when the sun is in Capricorn, and the northern hemisphere, you know, corresponds with the beginning of winter, and it's not the time for big, idealistic, beautiful dreams, it's the time to like, Okay, we need to really, like, buckle down, gather our things and try not to die because Winter's coming, right. So, you know, there's this like, right in the first house, I can already see this kind of conflicts between what makes sense for my survival, versus like, what are the sort of bigger dreams and visions that I might be a part of, or that might actually make me happy? And I think that's sort of a common experience for a lot of people in in our generation, those of us who have Neptune in Capricorn.

Kyle Pierce 1:06:16

Yeah, I would say that Jupiter and Capricorn is quite good at, like you were saying, like, assessing and providing for the survival needs, you know, security, long term durable security, but not necessarily, you know, it can struggle a bit in figuring out how to meet its how to feed its soul. It's really good at that. And like, Pisces, it's really good at that, and, you know, cancer in Sagittarius as well. But you know, in Capricorn, it's, it's, that is maybe the big struggle, I would say, Jupiter and Capricorn is figuring out what gives life meaning or what would we need beyond, you know, just these material things that give me the security that I require? And is it possible?

Tristan Paylor 1:07:00

I mean, the thing about Jupiter? Yeah. Is

Unknown Speaker 1:07:02

it even possible? Yeah. Is it realistic? Yeah.

Tristan Paylor 1:07:04

I mean, think about Jupiter in, you know, one of the signs where it feels really comfortable, like Pisces or Sagittarius or cancer, which, you know, is the opposite to Capricorn is that Jupiter is, you know, willing to have faith that, you know, even if it doesn't seem likely, you know, Jupiter believes that, you know, following after meaning, as opposed to following after security is doable. I have it basically, you know, Jupiter is, is willing to, you know, follow after what gives life meaning and what feeds its soul. And it's not inherently concerned with whether or not that pays the bills. Jupiter in Capricorn maybe has a little bit of trouble accessing that sense of optimism that, you know, you can follow after, what gives your life meaning without having to sacrifice your survival or your security in the, in the process.

Kyle Pierce 1:08:04

Jupiter, you know, it's the app tells you like, what's possible. And while it's in Capricorn, it's gonna tell you like, gonna tend to think or believe that, you know, not much, you know, or it's gonna have a hard time, especially, you know, I don't like, freak out too much about Jupiter retrograde. But I'd say, you know, Jupiter retrograde in Capricorn is a bit more conservative, it's a bit more consolidating, you know, it's like, really maybe a little like extra averse to taking risks, kind of risks that, you know, one might take when they believe that their dreams are possible. Now, saying that is not saying that your dreams are not possible. Say that at all. It's just the finding that the faith really, you know, daring to dream, but it sounds like you're kind of already in that process of like, you know, realizing that, you know, this isn't fulfilling for me, and maybe I need to figure out, you obviously are at least willing to consider that something better as possible. And I would say that there is an emphasis with this theme when you get Saturn in Aries ruling the first house because find that Saturn in Aries it's actually kind of a bit of an archetypal story. To some degree, that there's a weird kind of, you know, sounds almost like an overlap between Jupiter and Capricorn and Saturn in Aries. But there are similar themes that Saturn tends to struggle a bit in Aries as well because you know, planets in Aries have this expectations of them of themselves, that they are going to succeed right out of the gate, you know, that they are going to charge through the enemy lines and you know, bust through the trenches and conquer the enemy and you know, when, but Saturn by nature moves a lot slower than that. It's a cautious planet and it's a much more of a long term thinking planet. And I find that an experience that a lot people Saturn in Aries have, especially when it's prominent is you know, sort of getting handed down this expectation of success of what that means. And like really feeling like their sense of self worth is just really wrapped up in it. And sometimes they'll get themselves into situations that are not fulfilling or really conducive to happiness or, you know, sometimes long term sustainability based on, you know, expectations that aren't really suited to them. Such as, you know, being an engineer, when maybe, maybe something else would have been better.

Tristan Paylor 1:10:44

Yeah, I was looking at looking at Saturn and how it is also retrograde. So it's a slow planet going going backwards. So the theme of slowness reconsidering its Yeah Is, is emphasized when Saturn is retrograde. You know, and ruling the ascendant because Jessica's Ascendant is Capricorn you know, make Saturn kind of the captain of of this chart, and really an important player in you know, helping Jessica to realize her identity and what direction she wants her life to go in. And Saturn retrograde in Fall is not going to do anything quick.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:32

second guess that it does? Quite quite a bit.

Tristan Paylor 1:11:36

Yeah. Yeah. second guessing is the definite theme there. And you know, the, the kind of the solution, you know, with Saturn retrograde is always patience and just kind of accepting that, like, Saturn standards are very high and meeting those standards. Yeah, takes time. You know, that it's like, Saturn is like, I think it was Austin Copic who compared Saturn to cooking a turkey? Yeah, where like, you have to leave that sucker in the oven for a few hours, if you're gonna get a really good, you know, Christmas turkey. That is how Saturn operates. It's like, I want mastery, I want perfection. And that's not going to happen overnight. And that can be frustrating when Saturn is in a sign that wants things to happen right away. Oh, yeah, he's,

Kyle Pierce 1:12:25

yeah, any planet that's in the condition known as fall, which means it's in the opposite of its sign of exaltation, such as Saturn in Aries exalted in Libra, you kind of get, you can get kind of extreme of behavior, or in the sense of continue with that analogy, it's kind of like wanting to cook the turkey too fast, and you know, shoving it in the oven and like blasting, you know, flames on it and trying to eat it and like the outside is burnt. But the inside is, you know, cold and raw. Or, you know, the opposite. Being too worried about the turkey coming out badly that you never made put it in the oven to begin with. You know, the the fear of failure is really a heavy one for for Saturn and Aries. And it's kind of like the big challenge the big obstacle. And I would say that that gets a little more emphasized when it's under the south note as well. Maybe expectations of oneself can get a little low and maybe you know, can find yourself in situations where, you know, people might take advantage of that it's possible, but maybe more likely is going to be feeling like, you know, the feeling of being shortchanged. But you know, all that being said, there's quite a bit going for you and your chart actually really like while Jupiter you know, can they both both planets have their struggle in those signs, they have advantages in that they are considered diurnal planets, their daytime planets, they do well, during the day. And you know, you were born during the day. So you have the sun above the horizon, that in and of itself is going to make them a little more compatible with their environment, a little more able to achieve things. And even just you know, the fact that you became an engineer, which I can't I could not imagine going to engineering school that sounds like a nightmare. I would have bombed horribly in engineering school. So I mean, give yourself some credit for for that. Jupiter is also you know, its own bound. Just like this little kind of house within the sign little sweet slick has just, you know, some Jupiter stuff that Jupiter you know, has access to that makes it a little more comfortable, a little more able to figure things out in Capricorn, you know, Jupiter in the position that it's ending earlier. And today a call order it's overcoming Saturn, you know, so it's like imposing goodness on Saturn and Saturn past some responsibility to Jupiter because Jupiter is in Saturn sign. So Saturn is going to be maybe a little more receptive to, to what Jupiter is offering the possibility of hope. But like all all things in Capricorn, that takes time maybe to figure out, maybe it's gonna take you some time to figure out what it is exactly what to do.

Tristan Paylor 1:15:20

So yeah, just on the subject of, like, really dignified placements in this chart, the thing that really, really stood out to me more than anything else, is the very, very close sun, Uranus opposition. The by far the closest applying aspect in this chart, is the opposition between the sun and Leo in the eighth house and Uranus in Aquarius in the second house. And you know, as I was looking over this whole chart, and I was like, Oh, this is a career question, I should look at the 10th house, whatever the son was just screaming at me, it was like no trust and look at me, which is what the sun in Leo wants, which makes sense. It just like, I was like, Oh, this is really, really telling me a story. Because the sun is like, really well placed by sign in this chart. The sun rules Leo. So it likes being in Leo. It's like being at home, it's very comfortable as all of its resources available to it has everything it needs to succeed. And there's another you know, more minor form of sign bass dignity happening here to where the sun is in its own triplicity which is another little sort of boost to the sun in terms of, you know, enabling it to do what it wants to do. And like someone who is a successful engineer and like that is you know, the sun and Leo in a day chart is like, I applied myself to something really difficult and became really successful and I'm making a lot of money at it like the sun and Leo is capable of doing there's so much like capacity to succeed at its goals.

Kyle Pierce 1:17:12

capability is not my concern at all with this.

Tristan Paylor 1:17:14

Yeah. But that's but the thing is that like it's in this really tight opposition with Uranus. So you know, the the sun in Leo can succeed at what is kind of expected of it. You know, what it's expected to accomplish in the eighth house? Yeah, but it's hearing this call from the unknown. You know, as we talked about the outer planets kind of representing what is outside the realm of the known and Uranus it's I don't know I was I was imagining like frozen to with that song where she's being like called away by this mysterious song and into into the unknown. Imagine that you're Uranus is this like siren like, you know, in this mysterious wilderness, like outside of your window? That's, that's kind of calling you and saying there's something else out here. There's something more

Unknown Speaker 1:18:17

people Little Mermaid. It's yeah, it's like

Tristan Paylor 1:18:19

it's like The Little Mermaid. And it's, it's a little frustrating because it's hard to know what exactly Uranus is calling the sun to do or see. And that's made more frustrating by the fact that the sun and Uranus are in houses that are traditionally associated with concealment and invisibility. The second and the eighth houses are like the gates of the underworld it's very in traditional Australia they're a spooky like you you can't really easily see what's going on in the second and eighth houses. So it's like there's this you know, your soul is being called to something but it's not necessarily easy to see what it is. Or you know, even if you can see what it is like okay, well then how do I make it an actual thing like the sun and Leo you know, wants to like make something visible make something obvious, like what is the plan I'm I can succeed it this express

Kyle Pierce 1:19:20

itself, like pure like, in a pure way? Yeah. Yeah. It's like all about I have a terrible time. Talking about Leo, in a way that doesn't sound just totally narcissistic. Forgive me, it sounds that way. But some degree, I mean, it's, I mean, it's important to have that faculty of, you know, like, yeah, it is about me, all right, you know, what I want is important. expressing myself as important. Being authentic is important. Because, you know, it's through that experience of being authentic that you're able to actually recognize other people for their, you know, unique and authentic self and I think that you know, generally what the sun in Leo wants to do. But there's like a theme that goes along with kind of what we talked about with Jupiter and Saturn. You know, one of the more mundane, mundane, but, but less dramatic, more everyday elements of the eighth house, is this sense of responsibility? Or, you know, what you're kind of obliged to do,

Tristan Paylor 1:20:24

you know, is for other people. Yeah. It's about

Kyle Pierce 1:20:29

other people more than it's about you. It's about Yeah, obligations to other people or, you know, expectations from other people. And the eighth house, it's kind of a less visible house, and it's not the son's favorite place to be, but I bet you have great credit.

Tristan Paylor 1:20:51

Well, yeah, that was something I really wanted to touch on was that theme with the eighth house of, you know, being accountable to others. The seventh and eighth houses are not, well, the sixth, the whole tree of the sixth, seventh, and eighth, you know, those are not selfish houses, those are houses that are about, you know, service, or responsibility, or commitment to other people in your life. You know, the seventh and eighth are both houses of partnership. So, you know, the sun and Leo being so like, dignified, and having so much, you know, competence, it can really succeed at meeting other people's expectations, and, you know, doing what it feels other people want it to do. It's good at looking after other people, it is not a very selfish placement for the sun. No. But at heart, the sun's still, like, you know, Kyle was saying it's still does long to express its authentic self, and then it's got Uranus kind of calling it towards freedom in a way where you know, Uranus is, is, you know, always kind of saying break free, of, of what limits or restricts you.

Kyle Pierce 1:22:04

What's very tied into, like, your livelihood, too, which is second house. Yeah, vacation.

Tristan Paylor 1:22:09

And, yeah, it sounds like do something radical and wild and free, you know, and that's a scary proposition, especially these days, right to, like, pursue a livelihood that feeds your soul as much as it pays the bills. Yeah, it's not easy to do.

Kyle Pierce 1:22:27

One. Yeah. And then the eighth house, too. I mean, it's some of the themes, the eighth house is that there's a scariness to it. And that, like there's an uncertainty, you know, you can't quite see where you're going. The sun maybe thinks it's moving up, make things it's moving towards the ninth house. But it's actually being pulled back by you know, diurnal motion and stuff. To the to the seventh, which was the time isn't that bad of a place, I mean, I guess for the sun is setting. But, you know, by like medieval standards, the sun is what they call it in Hays, basically, like meets all the conditions to make it be able to express itself fully. But it's just in like, more tucked away house that, you know, is sort of harder to reach from maybe the perspective of the first house. But it does have this for the mitigating condition where the midheaven is at about five degrees Scorpio, and the sun's at two degrees Leo. And while the midheaven is very fast moving, and it's kind of moving a little bit away from the sun, it's like within that like three degree range, which is helpful for the sun. It kind of gives it an outlet, an easier outlet to express itself. Maybe not all about, you know, other people. It's about, you know, what you want to do? And see the midheaven is kind of like an aspirational point. Among other things,

Tristan Paylor 1:23:50

yeah. Like, what, what do you want to be known for? Yeah, how do you want people to remember you? What kind of story do you want people to tell when they tell your story that's your midheaven is kind of caught up in all of that. And it's ruled by Mars. It's interesting. The the 10th house is ruled by Venus, and the midheaven is ruled by Mars. And both of those planets are kind of squashed together in Gemini in the sixth house. Yeah. And Mars in Gemini in the sixth house, ruling the midheaven, which is associated with career, it makes a ton of sense for someone who would be good at engineering. Yeah, like Mars is a technician. You know, Mars is a technician and in, you know, in Gemini to having that ability to, you know, solve problems, and you know, it makes Mars a little bit smarter. It's the Mars in Gemini in the sixth house is very mechanical. It's very good at troubleshooting problems. Oh, yeah. It's happy to do really demanding work. The sixth house, and we know, Gemini in the sixth house, right? We sure do. And he's very good at all this As I'm sure it would make a good engineer, but I don't think it would make him happy either. He'd

Unknown Speaker 1:25:04

be good at it, but it wouldn't be makes furniture furniture, right?

Tristan Paylor 1:25:08

He does but not as not as a job. But yeah, that is a skill he has he can he can build anything. Yeah. But yeah, like in this the sixth house is in traditional astrology, the house for Mars rejoices. This the sixth house is full of crises and problems that need to be solved and missions that need to be carried out services that need to be performed. And Mars is like, yes, give me a mission give me problems to solve. Yeah, and work to do. So Mars is happy there. You know, poor Venus is also in there. And Venus is actually ruling the 10th house. So like a similar, there's similar symbolism there having to do with career and aspiration. And, you know, Venus isn't necessarily the most comfortable in the sixth house, you know, cuddling up to Mars, they're not like really closely conjunct, but they're, you know, in the same sign in the same house, close enough together, that they're having a conversation. And since the sixth house is such a mercy house already, it is kind of like Venus is is in Mars's house a little bit. And like Mars is a soul temperate planet. Yeah. Who is all about creativity and desire and joy? And all this like troubleshooting and concerned with

Unknown Speaker 1:26:31

healing and like helping people out? You know? Yeah, we

Tristan Paylor 1:26:34

have Venus in the sixth house is a good placement for healing nurse or

Kyle Pierce 1:26:37

medical technician is popping into my Sure.

Tristan Paylor 1:26:40

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a good thought. That will put both Venus and Mars to work doing some kind of healing work. Yeah, Marvel heal Mars and Mars? Well, Mars is a good a good medic, because Mars is good at responding to emergencies. And, you know, dealing with messes and injuries cutting stuff out of your body. Should,

Kyle Pierce 1:27:03

you know? You know, depends on what you want to do with it.

Tristan Paylor 1:27:07

But yeah, it's, it would be understandable for Venus to maybe feel a bit stifled in this situation. You know, Venus is is about what feeds your soul, and about what brings you joy, and what brings you pleasure. So I think, you know, it already sounds like you're, you're striving to find a balance here, where you're certainly capable of doing the Mars stuff, and you're capable of doing it as a career and being known for it and being known for being good at it. But, you know, it doesn't sound like it is feeding the Venus part of you. That that needs to find meaning and joy. You know, Mars, Mars is just like, just give me something to do just give me something to take action on Venus needs like a meaning behind what what she does, yeah. And Venus is is less about work and more about pleasure and relaxation and recreation. And you know, Venus can be very helpful when applied to livelihood or career because, you know, Venus has a healing touch. Venus is good with people. Venus is great with the arts, with music, with visual arts, with performance with all that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day for Venus isn't so much about meeting the career goal as it is about feeding her soul. Yeah. So you know, I can, I can see that kind of that tension taking place in this chart. And, you know, I wish I had more sort of practical advice on on how to resolve that tension. I mean, I guess maybe, I don't know, it sounds like you might, Kyle.

Kyle Pierce 1:28:54

I see, there's a lot of like, I don't know, there's there's something coming together in my mind. And I guess, I mean, it's going to kind of boil down to the same thing. But you know, what Venus and Mars want to do are going to be good at or it's going to be revealed a little bit by Mercury, you know, Mercury is in the eighth house in Leo, but it's also with the sun. So, I mean, Mercury's actually pretty strong in the sense that it is with a very, you know, dignified sun. And it's also wasn't making a helical rising. Yeah, it might be in three fast moving. It's basically it's right at that point, like right where this mercury is about to emerge from the beams. So it's like about to emerge merge from the beams of the Sun, which means like, it's about to be visible, it's about to no longer be hidden by the light of the sun. Now in the house, it's gonna be you know, tends to be a little less prominent and will less about like, look at me on Mercury. If you're like, there's a theme of, man, there's so much you could do with this, like, my mind is no therapy, like consulting work or investment, if you want to do it, it's like you have, like, I'm assuming you have great credit, I'm just I feel confident about that I, you know, you never know for sure. But like, the eighth house, like a well set up eighth house can be really good for, for investments, you know, if you like, you could mean you can, like, get yourself, it's the thing is, I think that maybe for you, Jessica, you know, security is gonna be really important, you know, you're maybe not going to want to, like venture off and pursue a dream, until you have, like, a certain amount of security maybe established would be my educated guess. But that seems like pretty within reach. And you also have, like, I don't know, a lot of certifications for just like being willing to work your ass off. And I think a lot of people who have like big ideas and big dreams, and no one in particular. But the the willingness to do that long, hard grinding work that, you know, takes a long time to accomplish, to without maybe really immediate results. Not everybody has that, within easy access. I see that like, you know, the resources internally and possibly externally are there for you to you know, pursue something, I think the hard part is figuring it out. And, you know, the Moon in Scorpio in the 11th house kind of goes along with this theme of you know, you get like dreams in the 11th house. And the Moon in Scorpio tends to be a little uncertain, a little fearful, you're afraid of being you know, exposed being seen, it's very in a very visible position actually is very close to the the midheaven. But that can be uncomfortable for a Scorpio moon. So that's kind of like the big struggle. One of the big struggles. There are numerous ones but

Tristan Paylor 1:32:07

can be one fellow Scorpio moon yeah.

Kyle Pierce 1:32:11

Is the the you know, the visibility, you know, if you want it, but it's really scary. Yeah, I mean, I guess my practical advice is, if you already know what you want to do, don't assume that, like, it's impossible, I don't know, I would say that you have assets, you have skills, like I don't know, like, this is like the, like the chart of somebody who like, I don't know, a story of, I mean, I see the engineer that doesn't like their job, but I also see like the, the person that, you know, figured out that they didn't like what they were doing, but like us the situation that they were in, to crawl out of it, it's kind of easy to get yourself trapped in, like the golden handcuffs, you know, the job that pays really well, but, but it's a little soul sucking. But it's nice when that job pays well enough for you to to save and, you know, plan your escape, I think maybe the trouble is figuring out where you're trying to escape to.

Tristan Paylor 1:33:10

And also just, you know, having that kind of patience, because the Escape Plan, you know, might be long term. Yeah, you know, just looking at Saturn ruled chart. And, you know, having to I mean, the, the wonderful thing about being Saturn ruled is the gifts of resourcefulness that Saturn gives. Like, I think the way Kyle just put it was really nice. Were like, you know, you're able to use a situation that isn't ideal in order to get yourself into a situation that is that is Saturn's, like, one of Saturn's greatest gifts. Oh, yeah, he grants us is, here's a shitty situation. And here's how you can use that exact situation to get yourself into a better one. So you know, that is definitely something I also see with this chart.

Kyle Pierce 1:34:00

One of my favorite Saturn in Aries stories is Douglas MacArthur, who had Saturn in Aries of leave on his midheaven in the ninth house. So he was uh, one of the famous generals who's responsible for like the Pacific Theater, but more or less responsible for all the land campaigns and, you know, that part of World War Two, kind of leading the army to defeat the Japanese and he's kind of a controversial figure. But there's something about Saturn and Aries that hardscrabble. It's the word that comes to my mind, something about like, you know, once it knows what its mission is, what its direction is, then it can grind on into eternity. Until Until the mission is accomplished.

Tristan Paylor 1:34:52

That's a very good way of putting it

Kyle Pierce 1:34:55

Yeah, it but I think maybe the probably the promise it's like, you know, when other people are expecting things from you, you know, like, oh, okay, I'll do that, you know, you're doing it out of fear of failing, of failing, letting other people down. But you know, maybe more of a struggle to find your own authority be find, like your own dream that you want to pursue. That's valid and okay. And that, you know, maybe not meeting other people's expectations of what you should be doing is not the end of the world. Maybe the willingness to go against other people's expectations, you know, can be a point of pride.

Tristan Paylor 1:35:33

Well, I think you've said everything I was thinking. Sorry, no, no, it's good. You said it better than I could. So

Kyle Pierce 1:35:44

it's rare. Yeah, well, you know, yeah, I hope I hope that's helpful. Jessica. I mean, I guess, definitely answered your question. And you weren't necessarily asking for advice. But it does show up in your chart. But I would say that I don't see you locked in, in that situation for the rest of your life, by any means. It's actually interesting. You're in a second house perfection year. But that's also which means like, the second house is activated. So concerns about money, livelihood, how you're making money, but the Fifth house is also activated. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah. So like, how can I make money doing something that I love that I enjoy? That is fun. And, yeah, that mean, the struggle is the struggle is real. I believe you. But you know, that struggle can be directed constructively. I think you'll figure it out. Well, yeah, anything you want to address them?

Tristan Paylor 1:36:37

Now. You've you've said everything I was thinking basically. And all the all the advice they would give without knowing more. Yeah, about other you know, possible areas of interest are things that that you've already tried and stuff like that.

Kyle Pierce 1:36:54

Yeah. Yeah. dialogue for that. But yeah, like we will wrap up the show for today. Anything. Any any good news? Any cool stories to tell?

Tristan Paylor 1:37:12

Well, I will do I will first. I will first thank our wonderful listeners for their questions. Thank you, Haley for that great question about Pluto. And thank you so much, Jessica, for sharing your chart with us. And, you know, I that's a sticky situation. And I hope you I wish you all the best and I hope you find what gives your soul joy. In terms of what I have going on, I am taking natal chart readings, as well as synastry readings over zoom. You can book with me by visiting my website at bad sign astrology.ca. So I could do natal chart consultations. I can do synastry consultations and I can look at your transits and perfections and stuff that are coming up. And I am also on social media on Instagram and Tumblr at bad sign astrology. I've been working on quite a bit of writing on my blog, bad sign astrology on Tumblr. I have seen some

Kyle Pierce 1:38:27

really good writing lately. Thank you like really impressed.

Tristan Paylor 1:38:31

I've been slowly but surely working on a series about the planets. I have just finished Venus. Last week I've only got two planets left. So I write about you know a little bit about the planets significations throughout the history of astrology starting with Hellenistic all the way up to modern and then I you know write a bit about how I use those planets and interpret them in my own practice. And I recently put up a piece on the houses just a beginner's guide to the houses and astrology that includes links to more free resources. So if you're learning astrology, I have some of those teaching resources up and available for you on my blog.

Kyle Pierce 1:39:20

One thing to know about me is I cannot bullshit a compliment. And I would highly recommend for instance blog. It's really good, especially if you're like just starting out, learning about significations of the houses and planets. It's really good and like easy to understand. Like it's not just all straw straw,

Tristan Paylor 1:39:39

Astro jargon

Kyle Pierce 1:39:40

lingo Astro jargon Yeah, it's not all Astro jargon. As for me I still offering Birth Chart consultations. The window on the donation based readings are closing you know I'm gonna maintain that offering and you know, it's much it's it's For all your lovely listeners and people out there, I also it's an offering to Mars and Saturn because, you know, they're in my, my fifth and eighth house and I feel like I have to you know, working with that square, I've had a lot of energy to work on passion projects. But I think I'm realizing that that, you know, they're not necessarily gonna get away with doing things that are just for me, you know, I don't know, like I have to give an offering to the I'm not gonna break that down. But yeah, it's my my offering so you know, my website, Kyle Pierce. astrology.com. You can go there. A greeting. Yeah. That's it right now. Yeah, thank every thank you everyone for listening. Thank you for your question. Haley. That was fun diving into Pluto. Best of luck to you, Jessica.

Tristan Paylor 1:41:01

For now, bye for now.

Kyle Pierce 1:41:08

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