The Signs of The Zodiac - Astrology 101

Tristan Paylor 0:05

Hello, you are listening to astrology hotline, the podcast where we answer your questions about astrology. Doing something a little different with this episode, we are continuing our series of astrology basics with an episode on the signs. So I am here with Kyle and with our special guest, Bonnie. (Hello, hello,) Hello to both of you. Do you want to you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and your interest in astrology Bonnie?

Bonnie May 0:37

Sure. My name is Bonnie May. I am studying Hellenistic astrology right now. I'm also facilitating at the Starsdance Mystery School. I just got I got more interested in astrology. Before it was like via studying witchcraft for many years but I got more interested interested in astrology in the beginning of the pandemic through Tik Tok actually, Tik Tok is what converted me in just just to seeing that there's actually more to astrology than than just like what's your sun sign? Although we are going to talk about signs today and there I think there is a lot more juicy information about the signs that outside of pop astrology and so that's what got me into it. So I've just been studying it really extensively, and the pandemic and during this winter when I don't have as much to do I'm going to be studying Chris Brennan's Hellenistic astrology course and Electional Astrology.

Kyle Pierce 1:31

I got my start with YouTube, I think

Bonnie May 1:33

nice. Yeah. Tik Tok is like the new version of that.

Tristan Paylor 1:38

I think it started for me like way back on like cafe astrology.com and the early 2000s. That was my introduction. Yeah, there was no like Facebook even yet when I started learning. So

Bonnie May 1:54

yeah, I definitely knew more about astrology like a long time ago, but I really only knew about like my sun sign Scorpio. So it was like I knew a lot about Scorpio but nothing else.

Tristan Paylor 2:04

Do you need to know but on the other side? Really? Yeah.

Bonnie May 2:07

But and then when you learn that you have a moon sign and rising sign and you have to learn a whole other sign and just becomes even more interesting. Totally.

Kyle Pierce 2:15

Yeah. Yeah. So today we're on he's joining us to do a deep dive into the signs.

Tristan Paylor 2:23

So I guess our first question that we should tackle is what are the signs?

Kyle Pierce 2:29

Now what are the signs

Tristan Paylor 2:34

and to know what the signs are, it's important to know what the ecliptic is. And this is like one of the most fundamental astronomy facts that any astrology nerd should know is what the ecliptic is. So the earth obviously orbits around the Sun. And from our point of view, on earth, it appears that the sun is actually moving through the sky, and it it moves around the celestial sphere over the course of a year. So from our point of view, it sort of creates this great big circle all around the earth. And that great big circle is known as the ecliptic. And ancient astrologers were kind enough to divide that ecliptic into 12 science. So essentially, each sign is just an area of the sky that planets and other celestial bodies, from our point of view appear to move through.

Kyle Pierce 3:29

Yeah, I like to think of it as like the filmstrip. Kind of like, where everything is happening, where all the action is happening, where the planets are moving.

Tristan Paylor 3:37

Yeah, filmstrip is a really good visual. That's totally how I've been visualizing it without realizing who is visualizing it. So thank you.

Kyle Pierce 3:46

And I think there are other systems of astrology that like will incorporate things like outside of the ecliptic, but I think like even the, like the fixed stars that we use, for the most part are within the ecliptic. Correct.

Tristan Paylor 4:02

I think that's a whole there's a whole complicated system to that, because not all the fixed stars that we use are along the ecliptic. So one system is to like find a way of projecting the ecliptic outward. And that's how you figure out what sign each star is in. And then there's another system but I am not I don't have a background in the fixed stars. So I'm not familiar with all the different ways of working that oh, yeah, it's it's it's all math. Yeah. I chose the form of divination. That's all math for some reason. Computers. Here I am. That's true. That's true. Yeah, we got it easy. Do it all by hand.

Kyle Pierce 4:44

Yeah, it can be sort of deceptive though, too, is because you get so accustomed to looking at the sky as the sort of two dimensional circle, you know, and even though things are sort of limited within the band of the ecliptic, there's a lot of space there to for planets to be above each other. Well each other

Tristan Paylor 5:00

areas, but we've I mean, we've got a system where, you know, we know we know what sign they're in, you know, depending on for the sun, the time of year that you're you're in the sun will be in a different sign. The the signs are conceptually pretty similar to the houses actually and that they're just divisions of space that things move through with the key difference being that the planets move through all 12 houses over the course of a day. So the sun will move through all 12 houses and 24 hours, but the sun moves through all 12 signs over the course of the year. So it's sort of a longer unit of measurement. Yeah. And it also means that the position of planets in your birth chart by House is a little bit more personal and localized than their position by sign.

Kyle Pierce 5:51

Yeah, do we want to say a little bit about how the signs were sort of constructed originally, not like a super deep discussion on that? Because it's a huge topic, but

Tristan Paylor 6:02

no, go for it. If you got like a little history for us then. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 6:06

You know, the signs are originally based on constellations. But some of them like Virgo is huge. Wow. Like Scorpio I think is actually like pretty small. They weren't like even evenly, you know, not all the constellations were the same size. So at some point like 1000s of years ago, like Mesopotamian periods, like pretty 3000

Tristan Paylor 6:30

I think it was in Mesopotamia where they first Yeah, divided into 12 equal sections. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 6:37

I mean, that's been around for a long time, but then you know, you get we're gonna get into the difference between tropical inside Uriel zodiacs,

Tristan Paylor 6:46

and I guess you know, it's probably helpful to know that the Zodiac that word is a way of referring to the signs as well. Sad means little little hills, I believe little creatures, zoo Daya

Kyle Pierce 6:58

moving, moving animals moving images of animals.

Tristan Paylor 7:03

Yeah, like images of animals Exactly.

Kyle Pierce 7:05

ties into the filmstrip analogy.

Tristan Paylor 7:09

Like when the Zodiac when the 12 signs of the zodiac were originally conceptualized. And, you know, the ecliptic was divided into these 12 equal portions. You know, they were originally associated with the constellations that fall along the ecliptic. And so when the spring equinox happened every year the sun would enter the beginning of the sign of Aries and it would actually be like, you know, in front of the constellation of Aries as a backdrop. But because of a phenomenon known as the precession of the equinoxes, the Earth Kind of wobbles on its axis a little bit. And so where the Sun is located at the Spring Equinox, actually changes very slightly over long periods of time. So that now if you are using the constellations as your sort of anchor point, the sun at the beginning of Aries would actually still be hanging out near the constellation of Pisces. But ancient astrologers were aware of this, like the precession of equinoxes was discovered a long, long time ago. And the result is that today we actually have two different systems of the Zodiac, the tropical zodiac, which is tied to the seasons. So regardless of the precession of the equinox equinoxes, the sun always enters the sign of Aries at the beginning of spring, when you use this idea of Zodiac that takes the precession of equinoxes into account so it's a little bit more tied to where the constellations are placed,

Kyle Pierce 8:51

even have like debates within the saudi riyal, Zodiac astrology community of like where that beginning point is with Aries like it like the Lahiri system and which is just like the most popular one but there's like a bunch of different ones that place the beginning of Aries you know, some variable range of I think it's like up to like three or five degrees. There's like dozens of different claims to the true beginning of the sidereal Aries which makes it nice to be a tropical astrologer because we keep Yeah.

Tristan Paylor 9:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just it's tied to the seasons. And so you know, every few months, somebody refreshes this controversy. Someone you know, will will publish a click Beatty article saying that they've officially confounded astrologers. Your your sign is not what you thought it was because of the precession of the equinoxes, but astrologers have figured this out for like about 2000 years so you just remember that you know, your your sun sign is tied to the seasonal movements as opposed to what constellation It is precisely in. And even like I was saying with this ideal Zodiac because those constellations are all different sizes, it's still like, you still kind of have to come up with an invented human system to figure out where those signs start and stop. I think that's that's all I wanted to say about tropical versus City aerials just to make a brief note of that. So people are aware people don't become afraid when someone says Your son's not really an Aries. It's in Pisces. It's like, No, it's It's still in Aries in the tropical system.

Kyle Pierce 10:36

I mean, I yeah, I don't know if you guys ever, like experimented with Siberia a little bit. I know I've it's very appealing to me, just my chart, like so much more dignified and scientifical.

Bonnie May 10:50

Yeah, I've looked at my placements before. And I immediately just like was appalled because I didn't want to be a Libra. No offense. I have a lot of Libra friends. No offense. I don't feel like I just don't feel like a Libra. So I was like, Yeah, I don't feel like an Aries Moon either. So I was like, this is this is weird. I'm going to back out of

Kyle Pierce 11:10

the sun. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Wants to be a Libra.

Bonnie May 11:16

And that's like another conversation because like, Libra and Scorpio are next to each other. And like, I've always wondered, like, oh, how does like the energy of Libras switch into Scorpio? And that's another interesting thing to discuss too. Like the deck ends and Oh, yeah.

Kyle Pierce 11:30

Yeah. So I know do you have you have a Taurus Moon? I have a Taurus. So you're a fool. You have a full Taurus Moon full. Moon full moon. Sun in Taurus with the Moon in Scorpio, so Oh, awesome. Full Moon and honestly, descendents? Whoa, that's

Bonnie May 11:46

so cool. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 11:49

With that, so that would be B. Fifth, fifth and 11th. Right. Yeah. If

Bonnie May 11:53

it's an 11th I have an 11th. House Scorpio. stellium and fifth house. Taurus. Moon. Cool. Yeah. That you're honest, is currently running over and backing up and then running over again. Yeah. That's always fun for

Tristan Paylor 12:07

tourists. Yeah. I just want to relax. Yeah, I've, I've, I've looked at my sidereal chart a few times I've become more curious about it recently. I think the first time I looked at I was like, No, that doesn't make any sense. And then the more I look at it, I'm like, you know, some of the same themes come? Yeah, just it comes are in different signs and configured a different way. But there's still some relief, like there are thematic similarities between both charts. Yeah. So one of these days maybe I'll get a reading from a sidereal astrology. Yeah, see what they have to

Bonnie May 12:41

Yeah, we'll say, like, I'll never say never, I probably will revisit it again. One day, I just started right now I'm going to focus on learning tropical, but then I'm probably will revisit it sometime. Because I feel like I need to be open to other systems. Yeah. That's always

Tristan Paylor 12:55

the trouble with astrology is that there are so many systems and they're like, all good and have like, they're all good in different ways. But you would be studying for several lifetimes, if you tried to master all. So it's like, yeah, trying to pick a focus while also being curious about all Yeah,

Bonnie May 13:11

it's helpful to pick a focus and just stick to that. So you can get to make some progress there.

Kyle Pierce 13:15

Yeah, at some point, you have to just pick, pick a system or an approach, then, like, get really comfortable with that before you try exploring different systems. You know, which, in theory, that's what you're supposed to do. I've never, I'm terrible with that. But I thrive in chaos, apparently. But That almost seems like a good segue into talking about how the signs get their meaning. Except only have two rules of science in astrology first, are mind.

Tristan Paylor 13:48

And one of the signs to that's,

Bonnie May 13:50

so now we're talking about like, what is the role of science in astrology? Is that right? Where

Tristan Paylor 13:55

they play? Yeah, what role do they play in this system? What do they do? And why do we bother with that? Yeah, I

Kyle Pierce 14:01

think in the simplest sense signs, you know, describe certain themes and qualities, or topics in life, and like kind of the broadest sense, but when you get into a little more deep, deeper astrology, you know, you learned that planets are sort of tied to certain signs that they have a certain level of responsibility for them. When they're inverted to them, I believe is the the terminology used in by the ancient Greeks.

Tristan Paylor 14:29

Ooh, that sounds serious. It's like being tied, like bound to something.

Bonnie May 14:34

Yeah, I think the way I've heard a lot of people describe it. And I don't remember who came up with this is that the planets are like actors. And the signs are the role they play. So the sign could be like, their favorite role, like their typecast role, maybe if they have like, say, Venus and in Libra. It's like something they're really good at acting but then like venus in scorpio might be something that's like a challenging Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 14:57

Like to think about it. The science is almost Like the genre of film, or the genre of the movie that the planets are acting in

Tristan Paylor 15:05

a way like yeah, I tend to think of the sciences like how planets do their thing like the planet in question, you know, keep using Venus as an example, like Venus is always going to want to do Venus things. Venus is always gonna have Venus goals, you know, Venus is always going to want to create harmony, and stability and beautify. And, you know, create works of art and help sustain social connections and all those kinds of things that Venus likes to do. So no matter what sign Venus is in there, trying to do those things, but then the sign that they're in tells you how they do those things, or how they're able to like does the environment that Venus is in limit their ability to reach those goals to they have to kind of be creative and how they and how they reached those goals or things do things just kind of come easily on the sign can tell you a lot about how they go about meeting their ends, I guess.

Kyle Pierce 16:03

Yeah, yeah. If you think of Venus as you know, was trying to do the the Venus the things create beauty and harmonize things together. You know, it's in Taurus is gonna have a really easy time doing that. It's like a romantic comedy or something. Like Scorpio, you know, you get like a It's a horror movie or, like, a thriller, or something.

Bonnie May 16:23

Yeah, like, you can still have romance and a horror. Oh, yeah. It's just it's not gonna be like the most like stereotypically like romance. Yeah, like a robot like a Taurus. US romantic comedy. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 16:34

Yeah. The pathway to a happy ending is a little more challenging.

Bonnie May 16:39

There's a lot of stabbing.

Kyle Pierce 16:43

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Tristan Paylor 16:45

In fact, you know, sometimes that can be the most compelling love story is like even darkest place Yes, you know, love will prevail as

Bonnie May 16:53

a Scorpio, Venus. That's like my favorite story. So,

Kyle Pierce 16:57

for all Taurus planets, you know, I've never been to romantic comedies. First daddy.

Tristan Paylor 17:03

Scorpio moon so yeah, yeah. Is Well, we've got the Scorpio fifth house too. So you know, the things that we enjoy on early staffing.

Bonnie May 17:12

The fifth the Fifth house is like, you know, romance like creativity. Yeah. That makes sense is because I associate the fifth house a lot with Venus.

Tristan Paylor 17:24

I think Kyle touched on this to an important role that signs play is that they they give the planets responsibilities and places to be they give the planets homes. So each each planet rules one or two signs, the the luminaries, each rule, one sign and the rest of the planets rule two. And the signs that they are sent to rule are called their domiciles, which means home. So that also means that if a planet is an assign that is not their own sign, they're essentially a guest in somebody else's home. So we stick with you know, Venus as an example. If Venus is in Scorpio, a sign that is ruled by Mars, then Venus is staying over at Mars as house basically. And so Mars. Because Mars rules the sign of Scorpio, that's Mars is domicile, Mars has responsibility for what goes on in Scorpio. And so Mars has responsibilities to Venus in a guest host sort of relationship. So when you look at like what sign a planet is in, in your chart, if that planet is not in their own sign, it's always good method of interpretation to look at the planet that does rule that sign and the relationship between them. And that'll give you some more information on you know, how, how's that planet feeling in your chart? And what are they trying to do? And, you know, is this guest host relationship working? Is it easy? Is it challenging? Does the host planet have enough resources available to them to be able to provide for the guests that is in their sign and all that sort of stuff?

Kyle Pierce 19:00

Yeah, maybe continue with the movie analogy. Venus has like a script, a movie that she wants to make and Scorpio. Mars is like the, like the producer, but like the who? I don't know, like the CEO of the film company versus like the degree might the film this studio. Yeah, the film. She's how much to fund the film. You know, it's gonna set the budget for Venus. Yeah, trying to maybe you approve or disapprove certain things getting into the final cut of the movie.

Tristan Paylor 19:27

Yeah, like that. All right. Do you have anything else we want to we want to say about what what the job of signs is?

Kyle Pierce 19:38

It gets the gist of it. Sure, will end up getting more that to some degree as we talk about the signs themselves.

Tristan Paylor 19:46

Yeah, absolutely. All right. So to understand the nature of the signs, it helps to know the sort of the building blocks that make up the signs because there's there's a set Stem of there's a system in place that gives the signs there, meaning they're, they're grouped into into different groups. And I mean, the the first and most obvious group that the signs are divided into that will be familiar to most people is that of the four elements, each of the signs of the zodiac is associated with one of the four elements.

Kyle Pierce 20:27

So what are the four elements Tristan?

Tristan Paylor 20:32

Well, we've got, actually, I think, I'll introduce the elements using using Aristotle's sort of model of the elements, which is where we get the, the symbolism of the elements that we use in Western Astrology can can trace its origin, a lot of it to Aristotle's theories, which are like, physically incorrect, but still symbolically very resonant. So you know, Aristotle's model had the, you know, the world being composed of four elements. And they, their characteristics kind of match with the motion of the Sun through the sky. So air, you can associate with the eastern horizon where things are beginning to rise, and then fire because you know, the thing that is like up highest in the sky is the sun, like the sun is sort of like the source of fire and the most fiery thing that is visible to us. So fire is like at the highest point in the sky. And then water is associated with like the setting place in the western horizon, because water moves downward, and it seeks the lowest place and it's like cooling and quieting. So you know, air is like the beginning of the day when things are getting lively and exciting. And then fire is like, the peak of the day when the sun is at its height in the sky, and everything is hot and bright, and everything is visible, it's easy to see what you're doing, you can be really active, it's, you know, the workday when you're actually doing stuff. And then, you know, the unwinding and relaxing and the sun starting to set, you know, that's represented by water. And then, you know, the, what Aristotle would have thought of as the densest element that's in the lowest places Earth, which is, you know, heavy and dark. And you can think of solar midnight, like the depth of the night when things are very cold and dark. And very still, that is the sort of earthy time of the day. I don't know if you to have like keywords or associations or things that you have for the for the four elements.

Bonnie May 22:38

Yeah, I often think of the four elements is like what kind of traits that they're good at. So like I think of fire as like being a very active element is having a lot of energy. And I think of water is like having a lot of emotional like intelligence like it's just like a very flowy flowy and watery makes me think of emotions because it feels like something you can't really grasp like water. They also the idea of like diving deep like Scorpio being fixed water like diving deep into the water and feelings makes sense to me. And then Earth Of course I associated with like, like material possessions and like Earth SIGNS being really good at doing like physical things in the material world. And air is to me associated like thoughts and ideas like just like the way that like air signs are always like brimming with ideas and they're like, going back and forth is like feels like a very airy quality to me. So I just think about the more symbolically that's something a lot of like, witchy people do, like whenever we have rituals, we talk about like the elements, but we also talk about them symbolically like what they mean in our lives, too.

Kyle Pierce 23:46

Yeah, no, I love that. It's I really like to think of it I guess about like, the, the nature of those, those substances like water, you know, it's a it's very movable kind of like air in the sense but it has like substance and weight, like Earth, you know?

Tristan Paylor 24:06

It's like it's heavier, yes, you have to carry a jug of water it's it's, it's a challenging experience kind

Kyle Pierce 24:13

of like fire is that like they can alter other things really well like you know, water is like the universal solvent. It's also like a great facilitator for chemistry for organic chemistry even and you know, the just thinking about like the way that the different elements interact with each other like in physical real world, you can pull so much out of the way certain signs interact with each other and certain qualities of different signs. You know, air is like the most like free flowing really of all of them. Earth is like very solid and stuff you can you know feel in touch. Taste solid things. Fire Yeah, exactly. Fire is like a lot of the time but very abstract because fire is a Ah, what the hell was fire? It's like a plasma or something. I don't know. It's like, you can't hold on to fire and fire is like technically a process, right? Like it's not its own thing. So much is like it's a process within the I don't know. Somebody tell me what fire is because

Tristan Paylor 25:24

when I think of it is light too, which is also hard because like what is light? You know, it's also very Yeah,

Bonnie May 25:29

yeah, yeah cuz the sun is associated with fire to like the sign Leo which is ruled by the Sun is associated with like fixed fire Yeah, you could think of the sun as like a big giant ball of fire guiding us. Yeah.

Tristan Paylor 25:45

And the water being a solvent to I think is an important quality, Aristotle's theories of the elements, he kind of subdivided them into these four basic qualities of whether an element was hot or cold or wet or dry. And the wet quality, which air and water were both wet elements in Aristotle's model, the quality of wetness brings things together sort of joins things together, whereas the quality of dryness separates that Yes. So I kind of like that because air signs are like in the social realm. They're all about like bringing people and ideas together and like communicating. And then water obviously like things dissolve in water and they actually like become unified in water.

Kyle Pierce 26:36

Yeah, but water. Not that we want to focus too much on fun hurt itself, but water has a way of breaking things down to water will will erode things. Yeah.

Bonnie May 26:46

So will air. Yeah, I think all of the elements have like some kind of creative and destructive power like fires. The most obvious to me, but they all certainly can. Yeah.

Tristan Paylor 26:58

Yeah. When you think of like landslides for earth, when you know, tornadoes, and when storms for air and tidal waves and stuff for water. They're all like, potete they have a lot of destructive potential and radiation. Yeah.

Bonnie May 27:14

So yeah, climate change has climate change has definitely shown us that.

Tristan Paylor 27:20

Yeah. Yeah, it's like they're, I feel like even though you know, we know that the world is not literally made of these four components. Now we have the periodic table of the elements we know, worlds literally made up, it's still like, we can see these symbols like as symbols of nature and nature's power really, viscerally still. Like, you know, when the when the sun is in your eyes. When you're trying to like drive home during, you know, just before sunset, and you like, your eyes are burning, and you can't see it's like you feel the power. Yeah. You know, yeah.

Kyle Pierce 27:55

Speaking of fire, you should read what you just typed. Bonnie, that's really good.

Bonnie May 27:59

I didn't type it is from Wikipedia. Well,

Kyle Pierce 28:01

I can just read it because I want to think it was making my point that the virus you said,

Bonnie May 28:08

Oh, yeah. So yeah, according to Wikipedia, fire is the rapid oxidation of a material, the fuel and the exothermic chemical process of combustion, releasing heat light and various reaction products. Yeah. I'm not going to read all of it. But I think what it said here was the flame is the visible portion of the fire flames consists primarily of carbon dioxide, water vapor, oxygen and nitrogen.

Kyle Pierce 28:36

So it has like all the different elements within it. Yeah, since

Bonnie May 28:39

it's hot enough, the if hot enough, the gases may become ionized to produce plasma. Ah,

Kyle Pierce 28:46

yes. Okay. That's really interesting, because it's yeah, like fire is almost it's like a process, but really draws on the other elements to create that process. You know, it's almost like not a thing in itself. It needs

Tristan Paylor 29:00

to be things to be fed. Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's hungry. There's a hunger to fire like it has, you know, somebody whose house is heated by a woodstove.

Kyle Pierce 29:10

Your whole house was heated by a wood stove. Yeah,

Tristan Paylor 29:13

I mean, we do. We do have electric heat, but we don't use it very much. Because heat is expensive. So it's mostly the wood stove. And it was funny because I had a couple of friends who were visiting recently, and they were thinking of bringing some firewood and they were thinking like, oh, we we'd bring like one or two logs and we go through like 15 logs a day. It's that that thing is hungry. And if it doesn't, cause if it's not constantly fed, it fizzles out, I think, might be worth noting too that. You know, if people are learning a little bit more of the traditional schools of astrology they might run into the word triplicity is sometimes being used to describe the elements because there are four elements and 12 sides. So there are three signs of each element. And so that will be a triplicity. So, you know, Aries, Leo and Sagittarius as the three fire signs is the fire triplicity. And the triplicity is also have planetary rulers as well. Which, you know, we don't necessarily have to discuss right now. But if people are interested in that, that's another thing to look into look up the, the triplicity rulers and you'll see that the the daytime planets rule the elements of air and fire and the nighttime planets rule over the elements of earthen water. Yeah,

Bonnie May 30:38

yeah. And that's like another way to refer to the signs. Some people use the term feminine and masculine and other people. Like I think it's, you know, can be kind of limiting. So I kind of like that having diurnal and nocturnal as a way to describe the signs. Yeah, I also like diurnal. Yeah, because I do get a really different vibe like earth and water as opposed to like fire and air. But you know, masculine and feminine could be kind of limiting.

Kyle Pierce 31:03

Yeah. Which is maybe an important, I think we set it already an important nother way to distinguish the signs. One of the main qualities of each sign is that either that Yin or Yang quality, or that diurnal or nocturnal, or some people say masculine or feminine and which would be the fire and air signs are the diurnal signs, and the doctrinal signs are the earth and water. Yeah,

Bonnie May 31:31

I've also seen people say inward and outward, like flat fire and air, the more diurnal signs are more outward and kind of considered more extroverted, if you if you will, and then the nocturnal signs. And earth and water are considered more inward because they're a little bit more introverted in some ways, or they can be active and receptive.

Tristan Paylor 31:54

Yeah, yeah, that's another distinction. Yeah. Which one is is like, you know, if you're thinking about painting, you know, what is the paintbrush, and what is the canvas, the paintbrush is like fire and air and the canvas and then like much of the raw materials that you're using to paint with or like, water and earth, and then all of them together actually make a creation of some kind?

Kyle Pierce 32:15

Yeah, well, I don't generally like to use the masculine and feminine distinction. Because it can be a little simplistic, it's, I do think about ancient human and migratory patterns is now that we have like genetic research, we're able to like study migratory patterns of humans throughout history, and what one thing they figured out was that they were able to like basically do history by tracking the chromosomes or like movement patterns. So like, they found that you know, you'd get the Y chromosome kind of floating around different places, because men would go out and raid other countries, they would sometimes settle down and they would marry local women in you know, their DNA would get intermingled with a population that way but when a like a rating group or whatever would decide like oh yeah, we want to live here now they would bring the women like when the Vikings were invading England for good 100 Couple 100 years, they were just raiding England and sometimes settling down but eventually they sort of bringing women and start setting up settlements. And that's when like Viking culture started to integrate with English culture. So when you think about not that I always use the feminine masculine designation for the signs they're useful up to the point that they can help you understand the signs to some degree but you can get hung up on it. But just thinking about like the traditionally feminine signs the earth and water like the substance of the land, you know is earthen water and it is more stable, it's more centered and substantive. And all the air the traditionally masculine science they're out moving around fire air, and I like round changing things here and there messing things up over here. You know, stepping

Bonnie May 34:21

over there like that's another air like I associate the element of air with like the in tarot cards like the swords, so Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's really fitting. But yeah, it Yeah, that kind of makes sense in some ways, because like, if you're gonna settle to a place like you need a source of water, you need like, stable land to like, grow things. So yeah, yeah, earth and water are very stable and like, very comforting in that way. And

Kyle Pierce 34:47

there's signs that have like lasting they tend to, like signify things that are more permanent, more more lasting. When you think about Yeah, groups, you know, They're gonna come and stay. They're bringing women with them historically.

Tristan Paylor 35:03

Yeah, that's super interesting. I'm just thinking of like Settlers of Catan now and like, you know, the, when you've got your sheep and and all of your, like different resource tiles and stuff that's very much like the earth side of things. And you know, you're trying to hold on to those and not have them like, not not lose them, because that is like the the source of stability for all of your plans. It's like the foundation of all of your plans.

Kyle Pierce 35:32

Yeah, I had only played Catan once. And it was friends who are really into gaming basement is totally designated for board games and different games. They made a full like, huge Catan board that took up half the basement. So they made like the giant hexagons. They're like this guy. Yeah.

Tristan Paylor 35:52

I love that. So you can actually like, yeah, I can walk around and you place your pieces, you can see how the land is transforming. And it was cool. That's really cool.

Bonnie May 36:01

Did we also want to talk about modalities and the signs?

Tristan Paylor 36:05

Yes. Do you want to get us started? Um, maybe go over what they are.

Bonnie May 36:13

Yeah, there are three different modalities Cardinal fixed and mutable. And they they frame like, the different parts of a season. So the signs kind of tell a story of the seasons, spring through summer through fall through winter. And Cardinal fixed and mutable, kind of tell that story like how we're transitioning in that season. So since there are three modalities, there's four signs for each modality. So for example, the cardinal signs, they start off a season, so Aries in spring cancer in summer, starting off summer, Libra starting off fall, and Capricorn starting off winter, this is of course for the northern hemisphere, and the southern hemisphere would be reverse. So that's something to keep in mind. And then fixed. Signs are kind of holding down the season. So they're like the very middle of the season when you like really associate like, spring with spring. That would be like the Fixed sign. So Taurus for spring, Leo for the summer, and then Aquarius for the winter. And then for the mutable signs, they're the ones that change things up. They're the ones that are kind of like more scattered, and they kind of represent that transitional period where like, it's like, it doesn't feel like winter, does it feel like spring and so the mutable signs are Gemini, Gemini for spring, Virgo for summer, it's like kind of the in between period of summer to fall and then you have Sagittarius for autumn to winter. And then you have Pisces for winter to spring.

Tristan Paylor 37:48

Yeah, that's, that's, I mean, just from the their position within the season, you get a sense of what those three modalities are about, where, you know, Cardinal is that sort of initiating energy. In Hellenistic astrology, those signs were referred to as tropical tropical means to turn so it refers to movable so the cardinal both it's interesting, both the cardinal and the mutable signs are about change in different ways. So really, it's only 1/3 of the Zodiac, but there's about stability. Holding it, mostly change. Yeah. So yeah, the the cardinal signs are changeable. And you know, that's, that's a quality that you'll see with all four of the cardinal signs is that they're, they're in motion, they're getting things started, and they are frequently subject to change. And then the fixed signs are more about stabilizing things, the things being steady and still an unchanging. And the mutable signs were referred to as double bodied signs, by the Hellenistic astrologers, which I really love, because I never really totally got the difference between cardinal and beautiful until I started thinking of them as the dual nature and science. Like Bonnie already said, there's a transition between two seasons. So it's like Cardinals about change, but it's like very clear, when the Sun moves into Aries. It's like spring is here. Whereas when the sun is in Pisces, it's like, is it winter? Yeah, it's spring. It's hard to tell, you know, so yeah. And those those signs tend to be represented symbolically by a dual natured symbol. So like Gemini is the twins. That's a really obvious one. Pisces is represented by two fish swimming in opposite directions. Sagittarius and Virgo are not as noticeable. But their symbols are dualistic. We're Virgos often depicted as an angel, so half, earthy and half celestial like the wings and the human body. And then Sagittarius is half human half animals. So there's like duality there. When the Hellenistic astrologers Yeah, I

Bonnie May 39:56

love that. Yeah, and I think of one difference I think with Cardinal immune balls, that Cardinal is kind of changing a lot, but it's like kind of picking a direction like we're going in this direction. Whereas mutable I see as more like a little bit scattered a little bit everywhere, which is, yeah, I definitely see that and like the end of a season like the end of winter going into spring, like sometimes I feel like it's spring summer they feel like it's winter. But for Cardinal I do feel like more of this, like push of, okay, we're going in this direction. A lot of people I know, a lot of Cardinal placements are really good at starting projects, and initiating them and then will like, start something else. Whereas Yeah, I'm, I'm more excited person and I don't like starting anything, but I will, like stabilize a program and like, fix things and perfect it and like, make it like, more fit more the integrity of like, what was started, that makes sense.

Kyle Pierce 40:45

I like that word integrity

Tristan Paylor 40:47

and love that. Yeah, science.

Kyle Pierce 40:48

Like, think of it as like forming the spine of something like if you were to think about this, like an animal, like, the head might be the cardinal sign. And like the the spine, the body, like the structure, like the main trunk of the being is like Fixed sign. And mutable is like the arms, the legs.

Tristan Paylor 41:09

Yeah, that fits, because Gemini rules, the hands and the arms here. And it's like, kind of the quintessential Yeah.

Bonnie May 41:16

Yeah, like, I like to think of it as like, the cardinal signs, like, are kind of starting something off and they have this like, great idea. And then they're like, Okay, bye, I'm passing up to you. And the big signs were like, Oh, wait, hold on, I need to like, and it's like, Okay, we are we are spraying right now we are fully spring and like, there's nothing we're not changing, we're not doing anything. And then when it's you know, then it's handed off to immutable, immutable, it's like, Hey, come on, let's go in this other direction. Try some like new ideas.

Tristan Paylor 41:41

The Hellenistic astrologers would often as an interpretive principle that the mutable signs if a planet was in a mutable sign indicated to have whatever was indicated. So like, for example, if you've got, you know, Mercury and Gemini in your third house, you've got a planet and a mutable sign in the house that's associated with siblings, they would say, Well, yeah, two siblings, that kind of that kind of thing. So tweeted, how you apply that to maybe more internal experiences, or states can can be really interesting and fun when you're being a little less like concrete and literal with it like what? What is that experience of being in two places at once like or having like, more than one of something?

Kyle Pierce 42:23

Yeah, mutable signs is like the best at multitasking. They're also like good at facilitating change. Like they can handle two disparate things at the same time. Like I'm, you know, I'm a pretty fixed person. And I really hate I'm like, a like to get on my track and stay on my track. And if I have to switch tracks all the time, I get really frustrated and stressed out. Yes. And I'm not like mutable enough to to adapt to new circumstances very suddenly, like I, you know, I can, but it's just it's like turning a ship. Yeah. As opposed to turning a Corvette.

Bonnie May 43:01

Yeah, big sign is just like to go deeper into whatever, yes,

Tristan Paylor 43:04

that's a really good way of putting it just diving deeper and deeper and deeper into one thing,

Bonnie May 43:09

and they could just keep going forever and ever and ever immutable is that holding a group that mutable sounds like okay, we're gonna do something else here. Like we need to get you away from Yeah,

Tristan Paylor 43:19

I think the the sort of chronological order is important too, because, you know, Cardinals initiating, but mutable is closure is like tying up loose ends and finishing something, it's like the end of something usually beginning the middle and the end. And I find that like as a very Cardinal person, which just like I've got just enough fixed in my chart, but not very much mutable. So like, I need mutable caretakers in my life who can help me like actually finish things I find the really mutable people in my life tend to actually be good at at the end stage of things are like that sort of transitional stage where one thing is ending and then we're heading in a, in a different direction in the future kind of thing. I am not so good at that. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 44:05

Cardinal signs are while they do get the reputation for initiating and they definitely are and do do that carnal sense of good for like starting things but also just ending like just ending it while like a mutable sign will wrap things up and bring them to like the settling place. The cardinal sign need to like, chop it, this is the cut. Now it's done. Which is like signaled by like the new season now, you know, that season's over. This is the new one.

Bonnie May 44:32

Yeah, that's true. Whereas mutable is more like kind of like, like you said, Tristan, like tying up loose ends. But yeah, it could also be like a good way to find closure. Like the mutable, like sign is kind of showing us like, Okay, what did we learn from this season? And like, how is it how is it going to feed into this next season?

Tristan Paylor 44:49

Yeah, I like that. I like that a

Bonnie May 44:51

lot. Before I knew more about like traditional astrology and I just knew like, kind of more pop astrology about like, Tauruses are like this and Scorpios are like that I, I was always wondering, like, why are they like that, and now like learning, like the elements and the modalities, it's like, oh, I can see this as like a story of the seasons and all the signs are kind of telling that story. And there's like this transition from one side to the next and different energies, like I think you've each sign just like a different vibe. It's like interesting to see like, how we transition to each one throughout the year. Yeah,

Tristan Paylor 45:24

I think it like it really grounds astrology because we think of astrology as being about the stars Beniamino Astro literally mean star. So you know, it's it is dividing by the stars. But it's also like, it's really dividing by nature as a whole. And the elements and modalities really tie the signs to the Earth where, you know, the signs are like floating in the in the sky around us. But, you know, the elements are, like what we actually physically and mentally and emotionally interact with. And then, you know, the modalities are tied to the seasons, and you know, the cycle of light and darkness and the cycle of changing seasons, and how that is expressed in nature around us. It creates a lot of opportunity for you to get in touch with your local flora and fauna and climate and seasons. Because like what, when the Sun moves into Capricorn and winter begins in my part of the world is going to be very different from what happens when the Sun moves into Capricorn in another part of the world. And so like, my understanding of the sign of Capricorn is really tied to like what happens in my geographical area, what you know, in, in the spring, when the Sun moves into Aries, like what plants actually start pumping up out of the ground in my area, it's going to be different from somewhere else. And so there's like, you get to kind of have a unique understanding of the signs if you pay attention to the times of the year when the sun is in those signs and what's actually like going on for you locally,

Bonnie May 47:00

like the way you said, Tristan, like I think, you know learning astrology in a really embodied way, like through the seasons like through like noticing what what is in your backyard, like what's out in nature is really important.

Tristan Paylor 47:13

I think before we we wrap up the sort of preliminary stuff. There is one small thing I wanted to just briefly mention, in case people are interested in doing a super, super deep dive into the science

Kyle Pierce 47:29

in our zodiac.

Tristan Paylor 47:33

Well, you can you can pick up the anthology of various Valens and find an interpretation of every single round if you are so inclined, which I actually have been doing lately for fun, because they're very interesting, but something that doesn't get used as much in modern astrology, but was used heavily through all of the different schools of traditional astrology all the way from Hellenistic up to the Renaissance period where these subdivisions of the signs and the two major ones that were used were the bounds, which you'll also see refer to as the terms and the other one is the deacons. So the bounds divide each sign into unequal portions of five. And each of those little portions is ruled by a planet. And the system that was used most commonly in Hellenistic astrology, which is what I learned comes from, they were they were called the Egyptian bounds. And they can be conceptualized as being sort of like the rooms in a house. So if you think of a sign as being like the home base of a particular planet, the bounds are like the individual rooms in that house. And so like you know, you might have say Venus is in Scorpio so she's in Mars is home and it's like kind of an awkward place for Venus to be in but Venus might be in Venus is bound or Jupiter's bound within Mars is home. It's when

Kyle Pierce 49:09

the USO comes to the military camp. Do the performances for soldiers or something it's like a place Yeah, that's a good way that environment even if it's like a sign that it's not comfortable with has like a job there or a role that is more suitable.

Tristan Paylor 49:26

Yeah, that's that's a really good way of looking at it. Yeah. The like performer who comes to the military base is like Venus you know being in Venus is bound in in Mars's sign. Many other subdivision that has been used commonly is the deacons which divide all of the signs into three equal parts. And I know those get used a lot in combining astrology and tarot. I don't really use them very much they originated with me Um, the ancient Egyptians would keep track of stars rising and setting and associated different little parcels of the sky which each with each of those stars. So I think that system eventually developed into the deacons and Hellenistic astrology. So if, if you're at all curious about getting into like the absolute minutiae, you know, take the signs and cut them apart into even smaller details because I wouldn't share enough. There is a way to cast your chart on astro.com That shows those subdivisions so I'll leave a link in the show notes in case you're curious to research more and want to look at where those show up in your chart what bounds and deacons the planets in your chart are and,

Kyle Pierce 50:48

yeah, I'll add on that note, real quick. Common practice in Vedic Astrology is like they'll divide the whole Zodiac up by different numbers. So like you might have the Moon in Taurus in the regular zodiac, but if you divide it by by like nine, you know, it might be in Scorpio, so you might have like a hidden Moon problem of some kind or, you know, in in Hellenistic astrology, they have the deco mores, right, which is the divisions of the zodiac. Oh, that

Tristan Paylor 51:19

12 Yeah, 12 hertz, right? Yeah, I do not use those at all. But I'm aware of their existence. I'm getting

Kyle Pierce 51:26

more interested in them. They're interesting. Yeah, yeah. Different, like systems of astrology, you know, use that in different ways. And, you know, so there's a lot of different like, ways to slice and dice the zodiac. If you're inclined.

Bonnie May 51:40

Yeah. And I like that because it's just like another way to see like, the transition of that the energy of those signs, like, I was thinking about that with like, Sagittarius season transitioning into Capricorn, if you look at the deck ends, like and it kind of tells a story of like, you know, the beginning of Sagittarius is very different from like, the end of Sagittarius season. The beginning of Sagittarius season is very, like, jovial and like, look, I'm so excited. And it's like this time where, you know, there's a lot of joy and jubilance. But then the end of Sagittarius season is a little bit more like, like you're finishing a race, and you're running out of steam. And you can kind of see how that is transit that transitions like perfectly into Capricorn season where it's like, okay, it's cold, or you know, maybe it's like really hot where you are, it's like, you're exhausted. And you need to just like gather up your resources and start to just like, build something and create something so that you can survive through the season.

Kyle Pierce 52:34

Yeah, like the party's over. Yeah,

Bonnie May 52:37

yeah. So it's a very different energy from like, the beginning of the sign to the end, just like it kind of like paints up a story for each

Tristan Paylor 52:44

sign. Yeah, I love that. Well, it's even with the deacons. It's nice, because it's like, the year like each season is divided into three by the signs, like there are four seasons divided into three. And then each sign is further divided into three by the deacons. So yeah, like the three parts of the season, and then you get the three parts of the sign within that season.

Kyle Pierce 53:05

So what's really nice about the number 12 is you can divide it a lot of different ways. Divide it by fours, vitamin threes divided by twos, it's a very divisible number.

Bonnie May 53:14

Yeah, we added a 13 zodiac sign

Kyle Pierce 53:17

there, ya know? That would ruin everything.

Bonnie May 53:22

No, we're not doing we're not accepting any other

Tristan Paylor 53:27

application to be accepted? Yeah, it's like, we know, we're doing our best to try to like make our existence feel somewhat orderly introduced this chaotic element into our nicely ordered system.

Kyle Pierce 53:42

Yeah, well, with that, are we ready to dive into the signs themselves?

Tristan Paylor 53:47

Heck, yeah. Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna approach the signs in a bit of an unusual way and present them by their pairings of sister signs. Because each sign has an opposite. And they sort of exist on the spectrum. And it helps to understand the signs by contrasting them a little bit with their opposite sign. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce 54:09

that was a brilliant idea, Tristan, and I think that you can really highlight the differences, you can understand something more when you're looking at what the opposite thing is, but at the same time, these yes is like they represent like different sides of the same coin. They have like themes that tie in together. They have things in common, even, but they're just approaching it from like opposite directions and a lot of ways.

Tristan Paylor 54:34

Yeah, yeah, sort of, I always think of like, red and green are opposites on a color wheel. But they're both fundamentally colors, whereas red and square are totally different categories. So the things that are in opposition to one another actually do have quite a lot in common, which is why I like the term sister signs a lot.

Kyle Pierce 54:55

Well, think of like a coin. You know, you don't have a whole coin without both sides.

Bonnie May 54:59

Hmm. Yeah, like that. Yep.

Tristan Paylor 55:00

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, you

Bonnie May 55:02

really can't have like when you get down to the sister sides, you can't have one without the other even though they might they might disagree with each other. There. They still need each other.

Kyle Pierce 55:11

Yeah. Be define each other absolutely balance each other to some degree.

Tristan Paylor 55:15

Well, on this topic of balance, that was the most Aries, who's the most Aries? I mean,

Bonnie May 55:21

I think Tristan as well as qualified.

Tristan Paylor 55:25

Yeah, I've got the Sun and Mercury in the 10th house and areas so there's no hiding them. There's no place to hide my Aries placements as as much as I might want to try as a candidate rising, so not Yes.

Bonnie May 55:41

Not be confrontational.

Tristan Paylor 55:42

Yeah. No, I am not the most confrontational person. And yet, here I am with two planets in Aries. So you know, based on that alone, we can we can say that Aries is about confrontation. Aries and Libra are our sister signs, they're opposites. Aries, you know, as we've gone over is the spring equinox, the Sun goes into Aries at the beginning of spring, you know where I am in the Northern Hemisphere, the snow starts to melt and things start to grow. And so you get a little bit of the symbolism potentially from from that process of sort of light and life and heat returning to the earth and things breaking into the ground, which is like you know, Aries is is a Mars ruled sign. So it's it's a, it's associated with war and, you know, spiky ouchy things, and you know, as as much stat stabby things, and as much as you know, we look forward in colder climates to the beginning of spring, it is kind of violent, when you think about it stuff, just like popping out of the ground, just like literally breaking the earth apart, in order to survive. So that's the sort of Aries impulse is like, I'm gonna break through this barrier, and I am here now and I am alive. And then on the opposite side of things, you know, you've got Libra at the beginning of fall, which is about balance and compromise and recognizing that like, you know, the world is not just about me, there are other other people in this world too, who I need to work together with. So there's sort of a movement away from like, the self focus of areas towards this other focus of Libra,

Bonnie May 57:27

Tristan, you've given me a whole new way of thinking of spring is like violence. So thank you.

Kyle Pierce 57:35

It's the violent reemergence of life.

Bonnie May 57:37

I think the pollen season is also very vital. Yes, here.

Kyle Pierce 57:42

One, it was traditionally the beginning of the campaigning season for, you know, traditional militaries, that's when you would break out camp and you would start stabbing your enemies with your whatever point is you had laying siege to their, their cities and burning everything.

Bonnie May 58:00

Yeah, I also think about how, like, if you think about the beginning of spring, like after, you know, going through a long winter, like winter is a really a time when like people like especially in more ancient times had to like, you know, make the resources last and like, survive through this really cold climate. And then now you have things warming up. So like, now you have now you can actually burn things more like you can burn some of that energy. Like because it's not, it's not a scarcity anymore. So you can go out and like pillage or, you know, start wars, because you're, you're able to have more energy to do that.

Kyle Pierce 58:34

Yeah, you think back then you would have been cooped up, you know, in your, your hut or cabin, you know, all winter, drinking your bread, just kind of surviving. But you got to be like really pent up really, you know, ready to get out there. And then like once the ice starts to thaw, you know, then you get out there and you can start hunting. Again, you can start planting crops, you can start things, again, all the things that you've been dreaming of maybe in season. But maybe something I wanted to do for all of the signs is talk a bit about some of the kind of the basic elements like Aries is the diurnal home of Mars, and the exaltation of the sun. So I feel like these things will tell you a lot about the signs themselves, while Libra is the domicile the daytime domicile of Venus and the exultation of Saturn. Similarly, Arias is the fall of Saturn, and the detriment of Venus, while Libra is the fall of sun and the detriment of Mars, the exile of Mars so they're, you know very much the opposite of each other in that sense. And yet they're out in a lot of ways defined by by each other and the both of the Mars Venus signs oppose each other. Yeah. Love and War. Yeah. And yet they're inherently tied together. Yeah,

Bonnie May 1:00:05

they need each other you like you? Yeah, they definitely need each other.

Tristan Paylor 1:00:09

And there's not there's not much worth fighting for without Venus Right? Like there's nothing for Mars to fight for. If there isn't something of value, something that is loved to defend.

Kyle Pierce 1:00:22

Well yeah, how do you you know, Mars is like a warrior. Mars signifies warriors and fighting but how do you make an army with Venus you know, how do you combine warriors into fighting force, you know, you make them love each other, you make them care about each other, you teach them to cooperate, teach them to follow rules, the exultation of Saturn Libra and set themselves aside, you know, set their personal ego aside because Arias on the one hand is very self determined. It's very self oriented and goal oriented, you know, it wants to achieve for itself based on its own desires, while Libra is a much more other focused. It's think of like, self determination versus compromise. You know, you can even get like hierarchy versus equality, you know, the sun is kind of the king of the planets, right? Center, everything. Mars, you know, will take things by force. All Saturn levels, the playing field, it's the it's the everyman,

Tristan Paylor 1:01:28

and as a death like the great equalizer, Nobody escapes. We're all equal on the face of death, which Saturn is the Grim Reaper. It's an important quality of Libra I think that people tend to miss there's there's a dark side to Libra beginning of fall, it's the the fading of light. It's actually like, it's, it's a pretty spooky sign in a way. It is Saturn. Saturn likes being there. Yeah,

Bonnie May 1:01:53

yeah, you Libras are more spooky than you're trying to pull us but you can. Yeah, Libra is the sign of justice, too. And I think that's why like Libra as a sign that wants people to cooperate is because there's that realization that you can't get to justice without hearing everyone's input. And not everyone, there isn't going to be like, there can't be a decision that pleases everyone. And that's just, that's just the, you know what it is. And I think Libra understands that, but wants to try to find more about like what everyone wants, so that can that we can come to a consensus.

Kyle Pierce 1:02:30

Yeah, it's got me thinking a bit about because, you know, you, you get Libra at the beginning of fall, when growing season has ended, you know, and you got to start thinking about like, the future, you got to start thinking about who's gonna get what, you know, what's fair, fair distribution of things. But you get like, themes of scarcity, even. And the funny thing about scarcity is it requires you to that's actually when you need to most cooperate with others to kind of pull your resources together, but it's also when people freak out. And

Bonnie May 1:03:05

yeah, sorry, I kind of, yeah, I kind of think of Libra in the beginning of fall as being like a sign that kind of realizes that. But it's like, okay, let's let's be calm, like, we can't, like lose our cool, like, we have to get through this together. And so there's that kind of like peacemaking quality of like, Let's not fight each other. We have, if we're going to survive, we have to do it together. And that means we all have to try to get along.

Kyle Pierce 1:03:29

Yeah. And we have to set ourselves our own personal desires aside to some degree.

Bonnie May 1:03:33

Yeah, it's not all fun and rainbows for Libra. It's also just like understanding the reality but trying to make the best of it.

Kyle Pierce 1:03:40

Yeah. So like to think about, like, you know, Aries has a bit of a, an authoritarian streak, you know, makes me think of like, dictators. Not that anybody with Aries is a dictator, you know, but it's, you know, sort of,

Tristan Paylor 1:03:54

excuse me. It's the king, right? Yeah, like a solar symbol is the king

Kyle Pierce 1:04:02

kings, like, you know, like, like their armies too. But, you know, Libra is like something like democracy, you know, rule rule by consent rule, by majority by deals with like equality, making sure everybody is treated fairly, but there is a Aries. With it being the exaltation of the sun, it should bring out the best qualities of the Sun has the potential to so there is a nobility to Aries that comes up a lot in Greek literature.

Tristan Paylor 1:04:33

Aries wants to be a hero. Yeah, that's because it's ruled by Mars. You know, if you look at sort of stereotypical pop astrology descriptions of Aries you get a lot of the you know, being argumentative and confrontational and, you know, selfish and me first and aggressive and angry and all that kind of stuff. But it is the exultation of the sun and the sun is like the center of light and warmth in the universe. And if you look at like ancient texts, It's about Aries. It's often described in a way not dissimilar to Leo, where it's, you know, the, this is the hero or like the good benevolent king or you know, the one who creates a sort of a life center for for other people. So I think there's like, especially with the sun in Aries, a real idealistic streak, like wanting, you know, to be the rescuer, or the leader in like a really positive way wanting to lift other people up and that like that there's a little piece of wisdom, I think in in both Aries and Leo, you know, which have those similar solar qualities that when you let your light shine, other people have permission to shine theirs as well. You know, sometimes, it's like, this is why representation in the media is so important, because if you're, you know, part of a group that never sees yourself represented in your culture, you feel invisible, and you don't have any role models are examples of you know, how to, to live your best life and reach your potential. But when you see people like you who are in places where they're very visible, I think Aries has a lot to do with visibility just being seen me you see people like yourself and these very visible very public places. You're like, oh, I can I can be me, it's safe to be me. And there's an example I can follow.

Kyle Pierce 1:06:30

Yeah, I think that the symbols maybe start to blend research to find more commonality between Libra and Aries and like, you know, Aries on its own, you can't really be the hero without an audience or you know, without people to rescue without being part of a group or without a higher ideal to achieve for and you you know, you really need others involved in that story. You know, it can't be all about you. In that sense. You think about Mars like on the one hand is like the marauding take what you want villain, but on like a nobler side it's it's the night you know, who will sacrifice themselves for, for others for the damsel in distress, and then, like Libra can be a lot spikier I think the people

Tristan Paylor 1:07:17

that iron hand in the velvet gloves,

Kyle Pierce 1:07:18

yeah, yeah, the iron hand in the velvet glove, I like to think of, you know, Justices sword too, and like the tarot card. I think that you know, what Libra will fight for is the fairness, it'll stand for that. It'll stand for justice that will like rankle Libra is when it sees identifies injustice, you might start to see the the teeth come out.

Bonnie May 1:07:42

Yeah, I was gonna say I think this is where we're starting to see the two energies merge areas and Libra because they really, like those energies need each other. I think the overall theme for me with arias and Libras about connection, it's like it yeah, it's a very social like that that those two sister signs are very social. I also think of where Arias is like integrating more of Libras when someone is like a leader but they're also teaching others leadership. So like maybe they have like a very like the very soul or and they have an idea and they really want to execute it but they also realize that other people have ideas too and maybe they see or maybe they see the potential and other people so they like help encourage them or help them become a leader in their own right and that's where you kind of see like some Libra qualities come into the Aries archetype not to get it all muddled but that is kind of like you know when you're looking at a spectrum there is like somewhere in the middle

Kyle Pierce 1:08:38

we I mean, I think you couldn't like if you have like a just a huge airy stellium I don't think there's any way you could live that or embody that without confronting the qualities of Libra you know if you're an Aries rising you have Libra on your descendant and funny how you some people know when I know in particular you know the rising sign of your partner sometimes is seemingly often is the sign of Your descendant it's mean you find yourself like seeking those those people out, you know, seeking others its complement and contrast.

Tristan Paylor 1:09:16

Yeah, totally. Yeah, so don't don't don't shy away from your sister science.

Kyle Pierce 1:09:23

Yeah, it's funny because I'm thinking about right now, the Mars Venus axis with Libra and Aries, but you could put the Sun and Saturn axis as well because the exultation of Saturn Libra exultation of the Sun Aries but then when you get to the other Mars, Venus axis, Taurus and Scorpio, you get the exultation of another luminary in Taurus, where it falls in Scorpio. And you know, everybody hates Scorpio so nothing exalts there, but

Bonnie May 1:09:54

I'm, I'm so offended by that.

Kyle Pierce 1:09:58

We all have obligated planets in Scorpio.

Tristan Paylor 1:10:03

And that's true we do don't really.

Kyle Pierce 1:10:08

But it's kind of got me thinking about the Mars Venus. Now, just to say a bit about Mars and Venus and the sort of complementary opposing qualities of them, you guys have any thoughts on them?

Tristan Paylor 1:10:22

Well, there's, there's an interesting I love the relationship between Mars and Venus, I'm really obsessed with it. Because in the most traditional sense, it's not supposed to be good, which is funny because like in modern astrology, we think, you know, that, that Venus and Mars go together and that that's like a really sexy combination, whereas in ancient astrology, it's like, you don't really want Mars anywhere near Venus. But at the same time, like in mythology, Aphrodite and Aries were famously lovers and we're irresistibly attracted to one another. But we're also forbidden lovers, and so had to challenge the status quo of their respective cultures to be together. And when you look, the world around you, you will find so many examples of Venus and Mars married together. Like tattoos are one example that I think of where Venus is about, you know, beauty and, and art and aesthetics. And Mars is about pointy, stabby metal things. And a tattoo gun is like Mars and Venus being married, like a lot of there are a lot of things that we do for the sake of art or beauty, that are also like very painful. There are all these like ways that these two things go together. And I think that's, you know, something funny about both the Aries Libra axis and the Taurus Scorpio axis is this sort of like, relationship between pleasure and pain and beauty and harshness, and how often we actually see those things paired. In nature, like roses are another prime example where you know, the rose flower is a symbol of, you know, Venus and of Libra and Taurus and then the thorns that the rose carries are very Martian, they're meant to like protect. Yeah, so you've got that, like, Venus represents everything that is sort of like precious and beautiful and Mars is actually the force that protects it and you know, prevents it from being harmed.

Bonnie May 1:12:28

Yeah, I mean, I really relate to that as a pole dancer. And any kind of like aerial activity I think is like, you know, it's associated with beauty but you know, it's also very painful like, you know, pole dancing around a metal pole. Like you get a lot of bruises, you need a lot of strength to be able to execute moves like safely and to make it look beautiful. So there's like this combination of like Mars and Venus coming together for me.

Tristan Paylor 1:12:55

Yeah, yeah, that's really good. But then like the physical activity, which is you know, another another trait that is assigned to Aries is like, physical energy and vitality and like exercise and weightlifting and dance is such a nice like combination of those archetypes so you get sort of like the grace and artistry of Venus with the like raw physical power Yeah, Mars

Kyle Pierce 1:13:18

yeah Venus prickly Venus in like Libra will go out and you know, seek you know, new social context new interesting things to do new fun things to do. But Venus is not very exercise oriented. It's it's pretty, it's pretty. It's pretty wants to it's pretty chill, relax, relax. Yeah. But you know, I think most people in modern society know that. You're doing Albinus all the time. You're not going to look very Venus. You need a little bit of Mars. Yeah.

Tristan Paylor 1:13:51

Yeah, and her energy and relaxation are good keywords for the Aries Libra axis for Aries is high energy. And you know Libra is more about socializing and relaxing and then the visibility and invisibility is another big part of that polarity or Aries is super visible and like out in the open and center stage and Libra is more like in the background like more comfortable perhaps playing like more supportive roles or you know isn't necessarily the most comfortable with the limelight

Bonnie May 1:14:29

yeah like that. And yeah, just go back to what we're saying about you can't do Venus all the time. You can't do Mars all the time either without just like falling over dead like you like if you're fighting a lot you need to like eventually resting eventually eat something you need to keep morale your body soldiers in the field. Yes. And yeah, you have to keep Yeah, and that's where the Venus comes in with war. Like you have to give people a reason to fight for something, some some kind of value.

Tristan Paylor 1:14:54

I think of I think of Libra too, I think of socializing you know The Air signs are all about social connection and sharing ideas and sharing information. And Libra is the Venus ruled sign, which is all about bringing people together and unifying them and creating harmony between them. And it's one of the things that I think it's really undervalued in modern culture, like, spending time talking to your friends, is seen as a sort of like frivolous, unnecessary activity. But like, if you actually look at psychological research, the more people the more time people spend just talking to their friends just for the sake of enjoying each other's company. No, like, purpose or goal to it. But just the only the only goal to this activity is we're going to take pleasure in one another's company and conversation, like that is the realm of Libra and we do tend to really undervalue its importance, because it's such a like, productivity driven culture. And, you know, that's, that's not see, you know, you're not like making money or, you know, achieving any, you know, you're not getting any letters on the beginning or end of your name by hanging out with your friends. Yeah. But it's super important to our psychological well being and just like, it's fundamental to human nature to want to just enjoy each other.

Kyle Pierce 1:16:18

It's something I have to remind myself of, often. Yeah, it's good. It's okay to just you don't have to be accomplishing things all the time. You know?

Tristan Paylor 1:16:27

Yeah. That's something Libra teaches Aries is you don't have things all the time, like sometimes just hanging out with friends.

Bonnie May 1:16:35

Yeah. Yeah, I think right now, our mainstream society is a bit too much in areas like Mars direction and needs to come back to Venus. Hmm. But yeah, Libra is often a sign that it's kind of overlooked. And I think that Libra kind of likes that a little bit. They do kind of want to be in the background kind of schmoozing everyone making sure everyone's Yeah, okay. Because because they do know what's going on. They know that it helps, like, they know that. You know, they're kind of like feeling the vibes of everyone. And like, you can't really have a good social movement without Libra. So like, I think part of them kind of like likes being a little bit under the radar, but they are. Yeah, they are very, it's a very important Yeah, I feel like

Kyle Pierce 1:17:19

Libra will often end up being the center of attention without really intending to be, you know, like, they'll say, whatever shows up to the party, you know, they're going to be chit chatting with everybody. And be like, oh, you know, I just talked to Robert over there. You guys both love d&d. You guys should get together. Hey, Robert, have you met Timothy? You guys should be friends and like, end up like, just connecting the party together. Yeah. And everybody will know Libra. But maybe, yeah, Libra won't be up on the stage. Like performing for the night. Yeah. Or maybe she will you know, but or he they but the it's not like for the sake of performance or achievement. It's kind of for its own sake like you were saying Tristan, for the pleasure that's

Tristan Paylor 1:18:08

more driven by pleasure. Yeah, than by achievement.

Kyle Pierce 1:18:13

Well, we probably go on and on but Aries and Libra forever but we seems like a good stopping point. For for those two Yeah.

Bonnie May 1:18:22

I mean, this is cool that we're getting into the next Venus and Mars pair and the next one is fixed is a different energy than Libra and Aries are Cardinal but Taurus and Scorpio are fixed so there are a lot more like solid deep into the seasons that they're a part of,

Tristan Paylor 1:18:38

and they're a different polarity to because you know, we went from air and fire which are more outward focused and you know more about what goes on during the day even though like Libra is Venus ruled sign it's like the somewhat more active out and about sort of Venus sign or as Taurus is like the deep relaxation like Venus is that maxim has turned the chill up to maximum and yeah

Kyle Pierce 1:19:02

is when I think you're going from less you're getting into a less social space not the Taurus isn't social, in more into sensual space with tourists, more into like the physical enjoyment of things, the the physical pleasures, the physical objects, the sensual experiences of life as opposed to the the social ones think Taurus can be you know it, very social, but it can be very happy to, to do its own thing. Enjoy things on its own. It's not as socially dependent I would say, as a Libra

Tristan Paylor 1:19:50

although it is very nurturing it is the exaltation of the moon. The moon likes being in Taurus. Yeah, we've got our Taurus Moon repor isn't it? Yeah, so I feel like you're the expert on this subject here.

Bonnie May 1:20:05

Yes, yeah. Yeah, I feel like the reason why the Moon probably likes being in Taurus is that yeah, the moon is and the Moon is about like our emotions and you know like because cancer is ruled by the moon we'll get to cancer more later but you know, emotions can fluctuate a lot and Taurus is kind of like nice and chill and is like, let's explore these mode emotions together but in this like slow kind of sustainable way and that's what I really appreciate about having a Taurus Moon kind of balancing out my Scorpio stellium because a lot of existential dread and like, want to be very dramatic, but my Taurus Moon is like, okay, we can be dramatic later but let's like eat a snack and like take a nap and kind of like chill and like, vibe through it and maybe it's not as bad but like, let's just like, you know, wait a little bit. So it is kind of this like, nice, like, stable sign. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 1:20:59

Yeah, I think too many something to note note about like saltation is that while the planets like super compatible with that sign, there is always a there's like a bit of a challenge, I think to overcome all exaltations like, it's much more supported has like resources available to it, but it's, you know, the moon is not necessarily super comfortable in that sort of fixed, stable setting, you know, it wants to move and fluctuate. While the moon and Taurus is sort of the challenge of maintaining stability and centeredness. steadiness when its nature is to be hither and thither and yon is that a word Yan Yan?

Tristan Paylor 1:21:44

Say? If it isn't it

Bonnie May 1:21:48

Yeah, I can definitely see that and like also having having a Moon in Taurus it is very luxurious. And you know, sometimes that means a lot of spending a lot of money on really soft things. Always do that. So me and I love it did feel and my moon is like, I want to feel emotionally secure. And I need the soft blanket and or the soft pairs of pants and that's one drawback of having an exalted Moon is that it wants a lot of things. Exalted moon and earth sign wants a lot.

Kyle Pierce 1:22:25

Yeah, real high expectations. Yeah.

Tristan Paylor 1:22:28

Refined test the thing with Yeah, refined tastes is a good one. That's that's the thing with exaltations is they come with those high expectations and high pressure and can kinda suck up a lot of energy and attention.

Kyle Pierce 1:22:42

think there's something to Taurus that it almost gets like dismissed it's like kind of boring or like people end up summing up Taurus in pretty short words like that, aren't they? The

Tristan Paylor 1:22:56

that's true it doesn't get the Lena it doesn't

Kyle Pierce 1:23:00

get that it deserves but I think there's something about tourists and just the appreciation of moments and experiences like where you know, enjoying the the weight of something in your hands, the subtle like, difference between a pair of socks and another pair of socks somewhere like this is a thing I've watched towards planets and like I can maybe

Tristan Paylor 1:23:22

in that area is I know

Kyle Pierce 1:23:24

seas are at the very end of the sock. It drives me nuts because it grates on the tips of my toes. So I need you know, the right seem to be in the right place and you can't be too tight because you know, then you get the marks in your your ankles and it's restricted, you get the blood flow. But if it's too loose, you know, then it bunches up and it falls down. You got to you know, the right socks are important. And Taurus makes a really big Taurus for you know, under undervalued stars and planets.

Tristan Paylor 1:24:00

Totally. I think it's kind of a shame that Taurus gets stereotyped as boring for some reason. Like there's nothing there's nothing dull about Taurus, like it's a Venus ruled sign, which literally represents everything that makes us happy and gives you pleasure. Yeah. And that, you know, a big and important part of Venus's domain is music. And like all of the I don't think I know a single Torian who isn't either a musician or a dancer Yes, it's a pattern.

Bonnie May 1:24:36

I mean that remark because I've rented like a while back I did this like little like dances for each of the signs like in the revolution, like the revolutionary energy of that sign. And like the one I was when I was thinking about Taurus, that was the one I was like, kind of the most struck by because like the the answer for like a revolutionary Taurus energy for me is like, you know, Taurus is all about knowing what we're fighting for, and like for Really enjoying like everything there is to enjoy about life which is very Venus like enjoying art and music and like the simple pleasures of life and like food and like, just like getting deep into culture like you know when when a society is happy when they're like creating art and food and enjoying each other's company, similar to Libra, the Libra is in a season where it's like more like, okay, it's more like a winding down period, whereas, like, Taurus represents the fixed part of spring is the heart of spring. So it's really the time of the year when it's like, we're okay, like, we're chilling here. Like we're in spring, we're like planning we have like new food coming up. And you know, there's like, not as much to worry about, and I think that that's kind of like overlooked, but like in a revolution, or like getting a social movement, like you need to kind of enjoy the things in life that we want to keep sustainable. So like it kind of just like similar to Libra. It's like what are we fighting for like that? That's the Venus Mars.

Kyle Pierce 1:26:00

Yeah, I think when you're moving to like Taurus Scorpio axis you're you're getting more into is Taurus it has like ambition you know, it does have like, you know, steady movement towards things in Scorpio similarly, for like, kind of a power access, there's, you know, you can get into on the dark side like things like greed covetousness like wanting to, to collect and hold many things. But then when you think about Taurus in the exultation of Moon versus its fall in Scorpio there is just the quality of tourists where there is I'm living in like more now kind of mentality like focus on what's happening right now in front of it this experience that I'm in the moon you know, being about the body and the turning over bodies the death and birth of bodies Scorpio being assigned is very concerned with death maybe the part of the moon struggle and there is that you know, when it's existing in its day to day life, enjoying the apple that it's it's eating, you know, it's like this apple is good, but I'm gonna die. Yeah,

Tristan Paylor 1:27:07

yeah, it's hard. That constant awareness of mortality makes it hard for Scorpio to get into that relaxed frame of mind. Yeah, it's

Bonnie May 1:27:15

hard to relax. Yeah, yeah, there's a sense of like, Can I really actually relax or, you know, is something going to happen? Do I need to be like hyper vigilant? And I think that's definitely a big Scorpios signification like Aries like the the Aries Mars is a little bit more like action oriented. Like I'm gonna go start a war but like the Scorpio Mars significations, I think of is more like defending and guarding and looking looking out for danger almost like being like a sniper like looking out for the danger and trying to see it before it gets you. So like that kind of energy like for the moon that must be really hard because like the moon just like wants to relax and Scorpio is like no, we can't we have to be ever been vigilant.

Tristan Paylor 1:27:58

Emotionally. hyperventilate. Yeah, constant constant vigilance. I always think of Mad eye moody and I'm like I'm pretty sure he has the Moon in Scorpio

Bonnie May 1:28:10

Oh yeah, absolutely i

Tristan Paylor 1:28:12

Yeah i Defense Against the Dark Arts is definitely a Scorpio so

Kyle Pierce 1:28:17

I that's constantly

Bonnie May 1:28:20

Yeah, it's like

Tristan Paylor 1:28:21

the the way that that Scorpio is fixed is more like sort of lying in wait waiting for something to happen you know waiting for the light Yeah, the other shoe to drop.

Kyle Pierce 1:28:32

Yeah, like a commando. Like the lion waiting because there is a patience to Scorpio but it's like waiting for the threat to come the threat is always within the awareness. It's just waiting for that moment to come your spider and your web waiting for the bug to come in and suck its juices out. Or you're the commando you know, you're behind enemy lines and you got the knife near your teeth and you're waiting for the Garda to come by so you can come up and stab them like that everything in Scorpio was about stabbing people but but right

Bonnie May 1:29:10

associates Yeah, I do associate Scorpio of like kind of predator animals that are like, around like in the camouflage because like that's that's a big element for animals is like being camouflage. Yeah. And being hidden from you

Kyle Pierce 1:29:25

waiting for the prey to come as opposed to going and seeking it out.

Tristan Paylor 1:29:29

Yeah, Taurus is like the soft fluffy bunny or like the beautiful deer you know use like the sun is setting and you see this like beautiful deer you know against the colors of the sunset just like so graceful and then Scorpio is more like you know the the skunk eating your garbage in the middle of

Kyle Pierce 1:29:49

it. experience that same scene like similarly like might enjoy it, but it's it's in like a blind in the forest with a rifle waiting to snake the deer out. Yeah. There's something like very nature oriented with both of them. Actually no, like a lot of like Scorpio heavy people that really like to spend time in the forest. They need time like alone, or like hunting or not even just hunting, but just time alone, honestly, it seems the Taurus likes to spend time alone. Taurus likes to, you know, it'll go into the art studio and paint for three days, but it wants to do it alone.

Bonnie May 1:30:23

Yeah, like Taurus. Being alone is more like I'm really relaxing and enjoying this, I don't want anyone to bother and disturb my peace. Whereas Scorpio alone is more like I can't really like I have to be hyper vigilant all the time. And being around more people just makes me even more stressed out, I need to get away get away from these people.

Tristan Paylor 1:30:42

Yeah, like someone's gonna attack me at some point. So I need to, like defensively move into something. Yes. So that, you know, no one can threaten me.

Bonnie May 1:30:52

i Yeah, I will say like, as a Scorpio, I don't feel like I can fully relax, like living around too many people. So that I definitely really need to be alone right now.

Tristan Paylor 1:31:03

I think another key part of this x is it's kind of like the axis of comfort and discomfort. When you're in Taurus, everything is comfortable, you know, your clothes fit, right. And there aren't any tags digging into your skin. And you know, there are no immediate threats in your environment. And you know, the temperature is just right in the room. It's all climate controlled, and nice. And when you're in Scorpio, that's dealing with things and situations that are very uncomfortable. And I think that's one of I mean, it's a strength for both of them, like comfort is important. But I think one of the great strengths of Scorpio, like, you know, the quality that it shares with all of the signs that are ruled by malefic planets by Mars or Saturn is that willingness to do the things that are not easy that nobody else wants to do to, like, start the hard conversation or to you know, be the person who unclogged the toilet or, you know, it's like willing to do things that cause discomfort or pain but which are like needful that that needs to be done that are important. Yeah. Yeah, there's a sort of there's there's a little bit of a heroic streak to both of the Mars ruled signs in a way where, you know, at their best, it's about like, stepping up and moving into a dangerous and, at worst, a potentially deadly situation, right, like being the person who's willing to go into a burning building to rescue somebody, you know, you you need a Scorpio or an Aries kind of energy to do that kind of activity.

Kyle Pierce 1:32:41

Yeah. The things that like, take sustained effort.

Bonnie May 1:32:47

Yeah, yeah, I think that's why a lot of sport. Yeah, a lot of I guess, Scorpios, probably, I assume, I don't know, make a lot of enemies. Because they'll, they'll, they'll say, Yeah, they'll say things that are like truthful that some people are like, not really ready to hear, but maybe like, what they see is that like, this needs to be said, or, you know, it's going to get worse, or like, I'm trying to mitigate the danger of this by making people aware of it or speaking up about something that everyone else is boring. And you know, you need that kind of like energy, the stuff

Tristan Paylor 1:33:23

people don't want to think about, it's like all this stuff that people want to sweep under the rug. Scorpio is the sign that gets stuck dealing with it at the end of the day. And, you know, I think like, as a culture, you know, collectively, we've been having some really hard conversations about privilege and power. And a lot of people will get their backup and get defensive when they have to confront the ways in which they've been unfairly made comfortable by their society, while other people have to suffer for the comforts that they enjoy. And it's, it's like, none of us wants to, like, look into ourselves and look at the ways in which like, we benefit from the oppression of other people. But we we have to and that's let's Scorpios job is like, we've we've got to face this stuff. And it's, it's not going to be fun, and it's not going to feel good. It's not going to make us feel good. And that's not the point, right? It's like we don't you know, examine these things in order to feel good. We examine them in order to make them right yeah.

Bonnie May 1:34:27

Yeah, because it's just gonna get worse if you put it off. So I think Scorpio kind of understands that like this is gonna suck either way so I might as well just like pull the band aid off and yeah, start this conversation or start this now.

Kyle Pierce 1:34:40

Yeah, I think about like you know, pulling up the floorboards and finding like rot and mold underneath. Which you have to like scour it you'd have to mean probably re do actually don't have to do any of this stuff. But I have to like re put a new would put a new everything, like remodel I read form the whole thing. That That means you have to like dig everything out and cut everything out. And it takes a lot of work. It's not something you can just like patch up or smoothed over. It's like longer sustained effort, but and also a willingness to look under the floorboards. It might look nice on the surface, but like underneath, if you leave it, but it decay and fester too long, your whole house will collapse.

Tristan Paylor 1:35:22

Yeah, and I think like with the moon being uncomfortable, in Scorpio, part of that is that all human beings feel darker emotions. And we all have like strong survival instincts and emotions, like envy and jealousy and resentment and anger and fear and all those really unpleasant emotions are actually like really important to our survival. But, you know, obviously they're not enjoyable to experience. And we're also you know, there's there's still a little bit of this like, puritanical streak, I think, in our culture where, you know, feeling those things. It's almost like the emotion police in a way like you're not allowed to feel those things. You're a bad person, if you feel those things. You know, if if somebody does something bad if someone cuts you off in traffic, and you get angry, then you should feel bad about yourself for getting angry. And it's like, that's, that's not productive. It's normal and natural to get angry. It's not good to let that anger control you and cause you to do an immoral action, but there's nothing you're not a bad person because you felt angry. You're not a bad person because you felt jealous. And the moon when it's in Scorpio is kind of faced with that side of our emotional nature all the time and it's really easy for the Moon in Scorpio to tango, well, then I'm bad and I need to be ashamed of myself. Because I feel these things when it's actually totally normal and fine to feel them and you can just like feel it and let it go. Which fixed signs are not good. Do a sort of letting it go. It's like no, I'm gonna sit here and beat myself up over it. Because I felt something that I feel like I morally shouldn't have felt the other day and now I'm gonna like make that worse by piling guilt on top of it. Scorpio can get a little lost in that sometimes.

Bonnie May 1:37:20

Yeah, I think what I guess I don't know. The Scorpio Venus. And Mia conjunct Pluto is like really obsessed with like, you know, taking apart shame and like when you said that I'm like, Oh, I feel for the Scorpio moons because like they shouldn't be feeling like that like you know, shame. I think yes, that's maybe a Scorpio Pluto generate that's like another tangent but like maybe that's like part of the Scorpio Pluto generation is like this is like you know Yeah, of like tackling shame and like really exploring it because we've just like kind of like stomach it for so long and it's really destructive. Yeah, that's probably like a tangent for this podcast. Oh, yeah. No, no, I love it in another episode. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce 1:38:04

I think it's still a good point because you're thinking about a planet in its exaltation. There's a lot I think in common with a planet and fall there they can express similarly you know, while maybe a planet exalted can have like very high expectations of itself that are really hard to meet you know and can can end up feeling that same level of like disappointment or shame or is kind of forced to hold the moon and Taurus is forced to hold on to feelings a lot longer than the moon but normally like to it may have more support in like dealing with those feelings when they come up, but I think you can still run into similar issues but there's like value I guess on both sides of the spectrum is what I'm talking about like Scorpio to its its Mars ruled water, you know, so it is it's like weaponizing the water but it's also it can musician too, if it wants to extrovert the water, like it's not always inclined to you know, but like, they will speak on it, you know, they'll speak to what's in that dark abyss you know, and they'll speak to what's under the log. Although the maggots

Unknown Speaker 1:39:21

you can definitely drown. Exactly.

Tristan Paylor 1:39:29

My absolute favorite activity as a child was flipping over logs and finding all the creepy crawlies underneath.

Bonnie May 1:39:34

This is Scorpio moon,

Tristan Paylor 1:39:36

I am I am such a Scorpio moon child. Yeah. And I mean, I have two pet snakes and I keep bugs and stuff but I always like I like what hides in the dark corners because I was always like, Those creatures are really like important. And they like play a really necessary role in the ecosystem, and they're actually not harmful, but they're very misunderstood. Which I feel is also like Scorpio can be misunderstood is a good key. Ready for Scorpio oh

Bonnie May 1:40:01

definitely

Kyle Pierce 1:40:03

you know you think the be forced to like dive under into the dark water longer than the moon normally would want to wants to move through water quickly if you can I guess see more and experience more but like you develop compassion for what's down there to follow on planets I think are very good at loving the you know what other people think is unlivable?

Tristan Paylor 1:40:28

Yes. Like sun and Aquarius people I think, you know, we'll talk a bit about that when we get to Aquarius, like loving the outcasts and the misfits is a big, you know, Southern Aquarius thing or it's, you know, planets in detriment or fall are definitely good at at sort of taking in the outcasts and the misunderstood and giving them a place to stay.

Kyle Pierce 1:40:51

Say that's would go with Venus and Scorpio too. It's there's a

Bonnie May 1:40:55

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely.

Kyle Pierce 1:40:58

The thing to note about Scorpio is it's not a place where soft planets do great. Or where, you know, wild horse is a place where soft planets, you know, go to the frolic and, and chill on sun bathe the Shire?

Tristan Paylor 1:41:15

I think the Shire is very Taurus. Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah. hobbits are very, very Taurus.

Bonnie May 1:41:25

Like, just down to the fact that, you know, they, a lot of them didn't even want to go on their mission. Like there's no here like, please let me sleep more. Let me have a second breakfast. I'm too soft for this. Yeah, they're

Tristan Paylor 1:41:37

not they're not like adventurous.

Bonnie May 1:41:40

They're like, why would why would we do that? It's yeah, it's like, if you gave you have the ring to a Taurus, that's what would happen the real lot complaint. Like, do we really have to do this? And I guess, yeah, that is like something I do want to pitch about tourists. Because I feel like, you know, Taurus is associated, like, very lazy. And I think it's kind of an unfair, like, I get it to a certain extent, but it's kind of unfair, because I do think like, when, like, I think you mentioned before, Kyle like, Taurus, like fixed signs are very single minded, like, when they're doing something, they're gonna be doing it for a while, and like Taurus is like, I often see them like when they are working, they work really hard. And then they, and as soon as like, their time to work is up, they're like, Okay, I'm relaxing now, like, it's like, it's like, it's done with work. I already did my work, I'm not working overtime, I'm ready to relax now. So like, they do work hard, it's just, they're not going to be like a Capricorn like working overtime and like trying to, they're going to be ambitious in different kind of way. Like they're gonna be very thorough about their work. But also like, yeah, that idea of like, you know, just like fully relaxing is something that they're really good at and that they can teach other people and that's like, the part of the season like the fixed part of spring is that that is the time like we really need to be enjoying what we have because there's going to be a time like in Scorpio season where things are gonna get harder and we're gonna have to like face and like really tough things together. And so you really want to spend that time with when you have like the juicy fruit like enjoying it because you know it's gonna go away in one day but you should really focus on enjoying yeah moment.

Tristan Paylor 1:43:16

Yeah, big time.

Kyle Pierce 1:43:18

Yeah, that was perfect. horse likes to have like a no it's like a you know the process having a good work life balance, the steady movement towards the goal. What are the what's the really give me it's not about the the destination but the journey or something.

Bonnie May 1:43:40

Yeah, journey. Yeah. Yeah, enjoy the journey. Like enjoy the present moment. Whereas Scorpio says be fearful of the present moment.

Tristan Paylor 1:43:52

That's that's a big trade of both of the Mars ruled signs, I think is like facing fear. Which is always like I was always confused that my chart is so marzi like, I've got the Sun and Mercury and Aries and my ascendant ruler is the Moon in Scorpio and I have an exalted Mars and Capricorn. It's like I it's there's a lot of murders going on in my chart, and I'm not super aggressive, confrontational person, but you know, I've I've spent most of my life with several anxiety disorders. And a lot of the time like, you know, stuff that other people take for granted is actually really frightening for me and I keep doing it like I keep doing the thing I keep getting up and and facing that fear and saying like, I'm not gonna let it control me and I mean, I've had like certain privileges that have allowed me to do that too that other people have not had so I'm not you know, making this like, look at me I'm so great, like success story kind of thing, because I've had support but I do think like the way I understand the Mars ruled signs is about like, being willing to face fear and like doing the thing even though you're scared shitless just like doing it anyway, that's that's the kind of energy that those signs bring. Yeah.

Bonnie May 1:45:08

Yeah, I totally agree with that. Because like, you know, I don't really consider myself someone that's like super confrontational, but I do feel very, like Mars ruled in a lot of ways. And I kind of I kind of like, feel like the, you know, the Cowardly Lion and like Wizard of Oz, where the Cowardly Lion is like, very afraid of like everything, but they ultimately Yeah, want to find courage and they're like, on this quest for courage. And that's kind of how I feel all the time. Like I'm constantly afraid of thing. Yeah, I'm like, but I'm like always trying to find like a slow very Taurus Moon like slow sustainable way and very Scorpio to address my fears and just like a, you know, a little bit at a time, because I feel like okay, I'm gonna have to face this eventually. And I would rather just like they said, but now I know, it's coming. And I can do it in a way that's sustainable. For me.

Kyle Pierce 1:45:52

I think like the willingness to, metaphorically maybe die with like, Scorpio, it's like, face death and eat it a handful of times. But know that, you know, you have the strength to get back up again.

Tristan Paylor 1:46:06

Mm hmm.

Bonnie May 1:46:06

Yeah, it's okay to be afraid. It's more just like what you do.

Kyle Pierce 1:46:10

Yeah, exactly.

Tristan Paylor 1:46:12

Do you think there's, there's one little minor point I want to make about Scorpio before we move on, which is that disarming is my favorite Scorpio keyword. And I think it's something that gets missed a lot. Like it is about camouflage and concealment. And defensiveness. And so, you know, we have all these images for Scorpio that are very martial or very spooky or whatever, but like, when you think about it, what is the most disarming most camouflaged sort of way you could appear is as somebody gentle and agreeable, you know, like I picture Scorpio, like running around wearing a flower crown and a floral floral print dress, and, you know, being like, super like so many of the Scorpio people I know who just feel like, relaxed when you're in their presence. And so I think it's that sort of like, you know, Scorpio is very good at appearing very light and gentle and soft, but actually having this like, you know, there's there's power within and they don't necessarily want you to know, but like Aries wants you to know that they're powerful Arias is in your face about it. Like don't you forget how powerful I am. And Scorpio is like, No, I want you to underestimate me. I want you to miss judge me. Because if I need to protect myself, you will not see it coming. I will be the last person you expect. Or the last person you would accuse. Yeah. Where's

Kyle Pierce 1:47:43

the stinger that's behind?

Bonnie May 1:47:46

Yes, Scorpio has had like a poker face. Yeah, for sure. It's all about strategy like Aries. Mars is like about going headlong head first into battle and Scorpio. Mars is like the overall strategy.

Kyle Pierce 1:48:00

It's about having a plan X, Mars and Scorpio are just yeah, the Scorpio version of Mars is the grand strategy for long game. While Aries is like, Did I look good? When I stabbed the guy. When I impaled him with the American flag.

Tristan Paylor 1:48:16

I look at brandishing my legendary sword. Yeah,

Bonnie May 1:48:19

but it's stabbed in the most violent way possible with the most blood everywhere. Whereas Yeah, Scorpios like I like I'm gonna shoot you and you won't even nobody will

Kyle Pierce 1:48:28

find your body. And it's

Tristan Paylor 1:48:30

also like, we kind of expect Scorpio people to be like, dressed in black and like, that's kind of recording me and I've kind of liked that. But yeah, Capricorn has really the sign. Yeah. Capricorns the gods sigh and I feel like skirt most of the like, really? Scorpio people I know. I've just been very sort of like gentle and fun. Like they look like what you would expect Taurus to look like. Come off that way. Yeah, yeah. And they're like genuinely nice, gentle people. But it's like I know that you know, you're assessing every possible threat at the same time. Yeah,

Bonnie May 1:49:09

but like I think yeah, I do often hear some people who are like trying to defend Scorpios say like, Oh, I really like talking to Scorpios they put me at ease. And like I think you know, that is fair like like like you said they are probably like you know, trying not to appear as like badass as they really are. But also like with that water that fix like water, there's a lot of emotional depth. So when when you get the trust of a Scorpio, which is you know, really hard like when when a Scorpio trusts you. They probably are like a really good friend, someone that's understands that can hold a lot of grief and love, like darker, like feelings that they probably aren't good to talk to you.

Kyle Pierce 1:49:46

I mean, Kristen's point about Scorpios are looking at like Tauruses. I think in general because the fixity of it like the the appearance of stillness, you know the appearance of it. stability, I think is important for both

Bonnie May 1:50:04

yeah

well actually I did wear a lot of really colorful clothing as a kid now that I think about it. There was a

Kyle Pierce 1:50:14

kind of flamboyant it because it's Mars roll that's a little more expressive. I think it wants to bring the deep weird water out.

Bonnie May 1:50:21

I was very flamboyant as well. I have an I have an Aquarius Mars too. So more fixed signs. But so that kind of flamboyant side of Mars. Yeah. I was like making a lot of weird clothing.

Kyle Pierce 1:50:39

It'll be weird. Yeah. Hard to pull it all apart, I guess. Because, you know, nobody has like, I don't know. Yeah, everybody is kind of looking at astrology studies. Astrology is looking at astrology through context of their own charts to some degree. So it's always Yeah, good to talk about. Good to hear other people's perspective, you know, and maybe know that there isn't any one unbiased perspective.

Tristan Paylor 1:51:08

Well Kate is probably going to head to bed soon. So I'm getting tired. I should probably wrap it up for me. And I feel like we will have a good segue into Gemini because it's another misunderstood sign much like Scorpio. Yeah, very misunderstood.

Bonnie May 1:51:27

Yeah, they're the two most misunderstood. What's this is really great for my Scorpio.

Kyle Pierce 1:51:37

Like, there's a lot Scorpios that Scorpios need, I think in general, so.

Tristan Paylor 1:51:41

I know. I think we're gonna make this episode a two parter. And continue with the rest of the signs in our next episode. So we will say farewell for now. Bonnie, do you want to do you want to let us know if you've got any exciting projects coming up? Anything you want to share with the world?

Bonnie May 1:52:05

Yeah, sure. Um, I guess first of all, if you want to find me on Instagram, I love to chat about astrology with people. I'm at Mayday astrology. My name is Bonnie maymay. So it works perfectly, I have made a astrology I'm going to be facilitating or CO facilitating my first class and star dance Mystery School, which is on Patreon. You can find us there. But we're doing a class called queering the planets which is we're basically talking about the planets and different like queer perspectives of them, like outside the traditional gender norms. And there's gonna be multiple tracks for this class. So kind of depends on when this is going out. But the first one is going to be starting with the personal planets the sun through Mars on January 18. And then we're going to have another track for Jupiter and Saturn the more social planets on March 8, and then the final one on April 12, for Chiron through Pluto, the more generational planet. So if you're interested in that, you can go to start ants Mystery School on Patreon or feel free to find me on Instagram if you want to chat more about that. Awesome.

Tristan Paylor 1:53:19

That sounds so cool.

Kyle Pierce 1:53:21

Yeah, hopefully I get this out by the teeth.

Bonnie May 1:53:23

Yeah, well, we have different tracks. Yeah, you can put

Kyle Pierce 1:53:28

sounds like yeah, you can get in a little later. Yeah,

Bonnie May 1:53:31

and there's some other things on the Patreon like we'll do like met we do like meditations I'm gonna be the election astrology, the new electoral astrologer. So I'll be doing a spring sorry, not spring end of winter election that I'm gonna be sharing and giving people ideas for different rituals that can do for that for that election. And I guess I should explain Electional Astrology Electional Astrology is when you, you pick. Like it's like natal astrology is where like you're looking at the chart for your birth. Election. Astrology is more like looking out in the future and picking a date, like an auspicious time where you might want to do a certain event like maybe you're applying for a job or, you know, publishing a book or doing a ritual. So it's like picking a time that might be ideal for that for that adventure. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 1:54:20

Do you offer electoral astrology services? Not

Bonnie May 1:54:23

yet. So I haven't I haven't started doing readings quite yet. I'm planning to start offering that soon. So right now I'm just getting set up on social media and CO facilitating this class, but it's something I plan to do in the future. I would love to do Electional Astrology for folks. So if you're interested, let me know.

Kyle Pierce 1:54:41

Awesome. Well, what about you interesting. Do you have anything going on?

Tristan Paylor 1:54:46

Yeah, I can also be found on Instagram at bad sign astrology. And my website where you can book a reading with me I do natal astrology I do synastry And I can do a bit of forecasting, looking at perfections and transits. So if you want to book any of those sorts of readings with me, you can find that on my website, bad sign astrology.ca. And you can also find me on tumblr at bad sign astrology where I post a bit of astrology writing. And also, you know, a little bit of basic stuff like what we're doing here. So some like resources for learning astrology you can find on my blog.

Kyle Pierce 1:55:34

Awesome. Well, it's for me, you can find me on Instagram and Tumblr at astrology for Earthlings and you can book a reading with me and my website Kyle Pierce astrology.com. And I think Tristan my maybe it's probably an Okay, time to say a bit the we're gonna be starting a club on the clubhouse app,

Tristan Paylor 1:55:59

our CO moderator, Shay will also be running a taro room which Kyle and I will be participating in. So definitely check both of those out if you'd like taro astrology both come and join us.

Kyle Pierce 1:56:13

Yeah, you can, you know, share your own thoughts about taro or if you're, you know, stuff that's going on in your chart, and we all you know, we all learn more, and stuff like that together.

Bonnie May 1:56:23

I want to join sounds cool.

Tristan Paylor 1:56:24

Yes, please do. It's a it's a nice structure. I feel like it's a good it's a good social structure for introverts because it's very structured and it's like you don't have to worry about talking over other people or you know, you each kind of get it's like you each have the the talking use of the free talking stick for that. It works well for me. Yeah. Yeah. Not only will you get Kyle and I if you attend these rooms, but it sounds like you will also get bond. So yeah, you want more fun,

Kyle Pierce 1:56:57

more of the three of us live. Come get it. But yeah, get the clubhouse app and, you know, be in our club. Talk with us. That's it. Thank you all for listening. And we will see you next time for more. More signs. Hi

Transcribed by https://otter.ai