The Planets I - Astrology 101

Kyle Pierce 0:05

Hello and welcome to astrology hotline, the show where we answer your birth chart and astrology questions. This is the first in a series of episodes where we are going to cover the basics of astrology. And joining us today as our first special guest is Joe G.

Joe G. 0:22

Hello. Hello. Hello. Thanks for having me today.

Kyle Pierce 0:24

Oh yeah, and Tristans here too. (Tristan: Yeah, I'm just hanging out) So want to tell us a bit about yourself, Joe G.?

Joe G. 0:31

Yes. Um, so I am of course an astrologer. But also, musician, so in my practice, I try to kind of blend both of them maybe work on towards making some talismanic music in the future of some sort. And I have a YouTube channel where I do Lunar reports. And yes, that's what I do.

Kyle Pierce 0:52

Awesome. I think it'd be cool to get a reading where like, somebody does your reading, but they do it like a bard. You know, like they sing your reading to you.

Joe G. 1:05

Ah, I would love to.

Kyle Pierce 1:09

Nobody else is offering that as far as I know. You got corner the market.

Joe G. 1:12

that is very true. Actually. My teacher offers that if anyone's ever interested in (Kyle: okay, you gotta tell me who now.) Oh, yes. My teacher is a Gemini Brett. He does. He offers soul songs. Which What's your what he collaborates with This pianist called Eric Deutsch. (Okay.) And he offers like a report with a whole bunch of like symbols and images. But then they also comes with like a 12 minute song. And like, each of the minutes goes through one of the signs and it's it's so cool. It's the coolest thing I've ever heard.

Kyle Pierce 1:49

That sounds awesome. I actually will have to check that out. You guys. I don't know. Do you guys watch the Witcher? (Joe G.: I played the game.) that the game was amazing.

Tristan Paylor 1:59

Yeah, I've watched my best friend play the game all the way through. But I haven't watched the show.

Kyle Pierce 2:03

You watched it all the way through. Wow. (Tristan: Most of it. Yeah.) It's like 120 hour game.

Tristan Paylor 2:09

Yeah, well. It was fun to watch. It's a no, it's a very engaging story.

Kyle Pierce 2:16

Oh, yeah. Well, and I read the books and I'm a huge fan of the series. So I'm really pumped about the next season coming out. Actually, I think is that's gonna be right around the Gemini. Full Moon. (Joe G.: Oh, cool.) I can't think of the significance of that. But I really like Well, that's dandy lion like in the books that the bars who just like follows Geralt around and like sings funny songs about killing monsters and shit. Which I would love to have and would love to translate into astrology in some way. But that is totally irrelevant. And maybe we should talk about what our plan is for the show...Tristan?

Tristan Paylor 2:56

I love it. I'm like Team Dad, you're back on track. All right, well as as team dad slash slash team, Team Saturn. Today, as the beginning of our astrology Basics series, we're going to be introducing you to the planets. The most central component to astrology.

Kyle Pierce 3:27

Yes. Yeah, I tend to think that you could and actually originally, like in ancient ancient practices of astrology, it was just like the planets, you know, without the signs. And you could probably get a ton. Do a ton of astrology with no signs or anything. Just look at like, what is what's rising? What's setting? What's at the top of the sky? What's at the bottom?

What do the planets look like? How do they behave? Yeah,

Yeah, exactly. How

Tristan Paylor 3:53

close are they to the sun? You know, when do they go retrograde? All that kind of stuff? Yeah. Yeah. And we'll

Kyle Pierce 3:59

Yeah. And we'll do our best to give a really general but, you know, maybe foundational sort of look at, the significations of the planets and why they mean those things.

Tristan Paylor 4:14

I've probably helped to start by defining what we mean by planet because the astronomical definition of a planet and the astrological definition of a planet are not always the same. The word planet comes from the ancient Greek word that means wandering stars. So really, when I think of a planet in astrology, the distinction is something sparkly that we see up in the sky that appears to wander through the sky, the fixed stars appear to stay in the same place. Whereas the sun, moon and planets appear to actually move through the sky. And you know, if you look at the moon, it's in a different place every night so it's actually moving quite quickly. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 4:58

You just have to break down Now we're going to be doing this is we're going to be following the ancient teaching tool known as the themea Mundi. Do either of you know what the thema mundi translates to?

Tristan Paylor 5:13

Set chart of the world? Yeah, I think, yeah. Monday is world famous for

Joe G. 5:18

our chart.

Tristan Paylor 5:23

Something of the world

Kyle Pierce 5:25

Yeah. Yeah, the birth chart of the world itself, which is the thema mundi, the rising sign of the world, or Cosmos, or whatever is cancer and (Joe G.: the best sign.) very appropriately... it is the best sign. And that's why we have three cancer risings here to to take you on this journey.

Tristan Paylor 5:43

Wondering if before we jump into the thema mundi, maybe we should go over just a few more sort of basics about the role of planets and where they get their meaning and some of that kind of stuff. Planets are really the most central aspect of astrology without the planets, there's no action there. They're the actors, they're the players. They're what move and speak and sort of give life to the entire system. You know, they they are what make the signs active in the world and what activate the houses in the chart there what rule houses in the chart and take responsibility for them. So really, they're kind of the stars of the show.

Kyle Pierce 6:21

I like the use the word actors, because without the planets, yeah, you just have like a stage. You might have some nice scenery might have a nice set, but you don't have any actors. So there's no story. And kind of like astrology, like, I know old plays, didn't really have much of a Have you guys ever gone to like improv or anything? Like watched improv?

Joe G. 6:44

I've watched it. I've never yet been in it.

Kyle Pierce 6:47

Yeah, I've never done it either. Not too scary. But yeah, but they're just, they're just act like they're acting out stuff. There's no, there's no scenery or anything, they're not even holding objects. They're just right, embodying the character or the idea. And you get the story, you get the message across quite clearly without all the extra stuff.

Joe G. 7:10

But there's also like this idea, I forget, like, what school of thought it really comes from, but I'm gonna say it's like, from around, like, fifth century, some small cult or whatever. Like, the whole idea was that the planets themselves were the aspect of God that was supposed to be in charge of creating time itself. So like, time is a byproduct of the planets. And that's why tracking them can tell you like what has happened in the past, but also what's gonna happen in the future. Because that's kind of like their basic function. I forget what it is exactly, but it's just like the whole idea of like, the tripartite God or like, the three part God, it's like a space time, and, I guess, oneness, or like, timelessness and everything like that. And then the planets are that part that speaks specifically of time.

Tristan Paylor 8:06

Yeah, I like that. Love that. Yeah. And they, they create the, the cycles in astrology, right, like the sun and moon, you know, the sun being the seasonal cycles, and all of that those cycles of time. They're, they're the measurements of our cycles of time. And if you I liked the point that you were making earlier to Kyle, about how, you know, if you were an ancient astrologer, kind of looking up at the sky, you know, the main thing that you'd really be tracking would be the the sun, the moon, and the planets, because those are the things that are moving around and measuring out those units of time. Which is something that like, we're a little disconnected from today, and we've got, you know, all kinds of light pollution, and we're mostly doing astrology behind computers. And we miss out on that, you know, like, if, if you were looking at the sky, even if you were using, you know, a system of astrology, where the constellations do line up with the signs, what you're paying attention to is the movement of the planets against them. And not necessarily just, you know, the signs, the signs themselves are not as ominous as the the wandering stars that are moving around in front of them.

Kyle Pierce 9:12

Yeah. I'm gonna tell quick story. No, it's too long story, but looking at the sky, and like paying attention where planets are like, when you see, you know, the moon next to Venus in the sky, right? It's like, it makes an impression on you. You're like, oh, wow, that's like their 100%. And then when I see that, and then I'll like, look, you know, okay, I'll pull out my app. And I'll look at the chart and it's like, oh, but they're out of sign. You know, like they're not they're in two different signs. They're right next to each other, but they're in two different signs. And I just that mean, I know what does that I know it's confusing. It makes me think about how we're so used to looking at charts on like, screens mapped out out like that, when that itself is like a representation of what's actually there. But you end up like losing something when you're not actually seeing what it means in the sky.

Joe G. 10:11

Right? Definitely. I for one didn't even know you could see planets until I became an astrologer. Like, I think my first experience of like seeing, I think it was Venus was the first one. And then I actually saw in the sky was so crazy, because I always just thought it was just like a start. I never really paid too much attention to it, and then realizing that not the planet, and that it's there. Yeah, it is, very shortly.

Kyle Pierce 10:39

Yeah, I can only imagine being an ancient person. And you just like, stare at the sky. But you and you just notice at some point, like, Oh, that one keeps moving, that one keeps moving. And that makes sense to me why humans would develop something like astrology, cuz looking at the sky just like fills you with wonder. And then you just notice that something is constantly moving, and then it does it in a cycle that is like repeatable. Like, wow, what's going on?

Tristan Paylor 11:06

Then you wonder, well, what does that mean? For me? Like, is that telling you something? And that's, that's

Kyle Pierce 11:12

such a human thing is, it's something?

Tristan Paylor 11:17

Where am I in all this?

Joe G. 11:19

My friend who's not an astrologer said this to me, one of these days, and I thought it was like the best thing I've ever heard in my life. It was just like, above the sun, and just like imagining like, a group of like, ancient humans, and just looking at the sun and somebody asking, like, what the fuck is that? And then the other person is just like, I don't know, God probably.

Tristan Paylor 11:45

That's a good segue into sort of answering the question of where do the planets get their meaning in the first place? Because obviously, you know, we've spent 1000s of years looking at them and assigning significance to them. So where does that significance come from? And, you know, the planet symbolizes certain things in astrology, obviously. So where does that all come from, and that is one of those sources of meaning is that people would tie the wandering stars to specific gods in their Pantheon in ancient Mesopotamia, the different planets would be associated with different gods and would be seen as sort of like messengers of those gods and their movements would tell you something about you know, if that God was warning you about something, or saying it's a good time for this thing, or that, and then the ancient Greeks followed suit. And we still, you know, in, in modern Western astrology, still use the ancient Roman names of the Greek deities that the planets were associated with. So that's a good source of meaning for them.

Joe G. 12:52

And that's a good thing to mention, too, because I think that a lot of people who are just coming into astrology, they have this assumption that some astrologers see the planet as like the literal God. But even in like, in the ancient ancient texts, it's always like, v star of Venus, no, necessarily, like, this is Venus out there in the sky.

Tristan Paylor 13:11

Yeah, and the ancient Greeks had like, as you know, they had quite a catalogue of spirits. And the planets had a number of names, like there was the name of the God that were associated with. But there were also names that were just sort of more descriptive, you know, or like Venus's name means like bright light. And then there were also names of the spirits of the planets themselves. So it was like, the one way of looking at is that the planets are more like spirits. They're sort of like animistic beings, that have an affinity for certain gods but themselves, they're more like nymphs or nature spirits, and they had their sort of specific names,

Kyle Pierce 13:51

kind of in the Greek cosmology, the planets were more messengers of the gods, in a sense, like the Zodiac itself was like the god part, you know, and the planets were sort of the earthly carriers of, you know, the messages of the gods, you know, we can't understand that, that God stuff, it's all big, but the planets are, you know, around here, they're around us, and they cannot translate for us and deliver their messages.

Tristan Paylor 14:20

Yeah, they're like mediators.

Joe G. 14:24

Especially because platonic thought was like such a big thing too. And they have like the whole concept of like the world the forum's versus, like, the carnal universe, that we're here and everything's tangible and can be seen and can be interpreted in a very, like, tangible and easy way. And so like the God would be more so like that divine, intangible, ineffable, timeless, sort of like archetype wars. The planet is like the thing that kind of carries that was like a small piece of that to life on Earth.

Kyle Pierce 14:59

Yeah, that that ends up being how I see it really two planets is the especially the visible planets is that they're, they're talking about stuff that is actually, you know, showing up in life that are you know, there's a lot of reality that probably goes on outside of what we can, you know, tangibly experience in our limited human perspectives. And the planets are dealing with, like our stuff, our human lives.

Tristan Paylor 15:28

And they're sort of their visibility as how apparent they are in the sky, also as a source of meaning, in that sense, where, you know, the moon being extremely close to us, gets some meaning just from its proximity, and its brightness and its visibility. Whereas, Saturn, which is, you know, the dimmest visible star, you know, it gets some meaning simply from that from being the dumbest. And as we know, now, the the farthest away of the visible planets, where it represents a sort of boundary between the world of what we can see and the world that is unseen. And, you know, that's, you can understand why Saturn starts to get some of those significations of death and finality and closure being sort of the, the one that is closest to that boundary.

Joe G. 16:16

Right. And that's a thing that always makes me think about, like, the whole conversation about people moving to Mars, and all of that, because then we'd be bringing, what is it, Neptune and Uranus, which probably would be visible from Mars, to that realm of like, things are like a little bit more concrete and tangible? And how could that even be a thing and like, now, Earth is also one of those wonders, like what what does the Earth mean? Interesting things to think about? Ah,

Kyle Pierce 16:48

that's, I hadn't ever thought about that, actually, that you're in this wouldn't have to be visible from Mars. Uranus would be. So that's actually a very interesting idea. I know I think about that all the time. Actually. Like if we were to colonize Mars. There's a show called The Expanse which I never got super into. But basically about there's basically like, kind of three civilizations in, in our solar system in the future, and one is on Mars. And one is on Cirrus, which, you know, is just an asteroid. Right. But it's actually probably

Joe G. 17:27

would that be a good idea? Because sereis doesn't really have too many asteroid protection.

Kyle Pierce 17:33

I mean, I think it will I think it I don't know. I don't know enough about about series, but I know it has a ton of water. And it's actually in the show, it's very important because, you know, Mars gets all this water from from Cirrus. And but Mars wants to take over the solar system? Of course, because it's, it's Mars, you know? Why? Yeah. I wonder like, if we, you know, colonize Mars, would we, with the people be very Mars like, you know, or would would we become the Mars or I don't know, it's hard, it's a imaginably, it's a whole new set of symbols would have to be created.

Tristan Paylor 18:10

I was actually thinking about this yesterday, because I was, you know, speaking of the source of meaning for, for the planets, the source of symbolism. Mars is kind of a funny case, where, you know, the ancient people looked up and saw a bright red star in the sky, and it looks like blood. So obviously, that's, you know, the Messenger of the War God. And then when, you know, modern astronomy came around, and we were actually able to start exploring Mars, it's, you know, of all the planets in the solar system, other than Earth would be the most hospitable to life and have the most potential, which is a very different signification than war and death, which is what Mars usually means. But on the other hand, more hospitable than the Venus is way more Mars, like in terms of its weather than Mars is. But I was also thinking, you know, if we were to colonize Mars, it would probably be an act of desperation, because we've burned through all of our resources on Earth. So it's sort of like, acting like Mars would result in us having to like, take this extreme, which is a very Marsing navigation and move all the way out there. And, you know, try and survive in you know, another, like it and you know, we'd have to, I mean, I don't even know if it's actually technically possible to colonize Mars, but it would require some pretty extreme measures to make it hospitable for us. So it's still it's like there, there's some more complexity that the things we've learned about Mars from space travel potentially gives to the symbolism, but it's still finds a way of showing up that sort of more ancient idea of Mars being extremes and harshness and all those kinds of fun things.

Kyle Pierce 19:55

Next week down astrology hotline, our special guest, Elon Musk will be here to do We'll all be living on Mars. It's a really good point, though, and it would actually be a very Marshall kind of existence. I imagine living on Mars, very survival oriented and practical feel like I'm gonna be referencing I know, we should probably save some of this for when we talk about Mars.

Tristan Paylor 20:19

Right? Should we maybe move on to our more general overview and maybe we can talk about sect and then start getting into the the thema Mundi and all that good stuff. Yeah. So one of the most important ways of categorizing the planets is what is called sect and listeners who are familiar with Hellenistic astrology will be familiar with this concept, which is that you the most sort of obvious division of meaning and the most obvious division of time that happens in our lives is the division between day and night. And the sun and the moon you know, govern day and night respectively. And so there's this idea in ancient astrology that the other planets kind of follow suit like they either play for the daytime team or the nighttime team. And so the the planets that belong to the diurnal sects are belong to the Sun team are the Saturn, Jupiter and obviously the Sun and the planets that belong to the moon team are obviously the moon as well as Venus and Mars. And you know beginning a trend that if you study astrology long enough you will discover comes up over and over again Mercury just doesn't follow the rules and plays for both teams

Joe G. 21:46

that's the way to live

Kyle Pierce 21:52

I was very close to being a Gemini rising. Just missed it by like 20 minutes

Tristan Paylor 21:57

the world could not have handled me as a Gemini rising I already have the mercury in the 10th house it's the most elevated planet in my chart.

Joe G. 22:05

That's cool.

Kyle Pierce 22:09

Well, so maybe we should break down you know, the daytime sect traditionally is the sun for obvious reasons, and then have Jupiter as the daytime Pacific and Saturn as the daytime malefic the night planets would be the moon as the the nighttime luminary for obvious reasons. And then you'd have Venus as the nighttime benefic and Mars as the nighttime malefic.

Joe G. 22:35

And the whole malefic benefit thing is always super interesting because you'd expect especially Mars and Saturn to to be flipped. Because Saturn of course is cold, certain things. cold night night is usually colder than probably Saturn goes there, and Mars as skipping to planetary qualities. But Mars is a warm planet, you just assume that Maurice goes for the day because days warmer, but then you think that the whole thing too is that both of them ill effects kind of run in this system of extremes. So then being in the opposite, on the opposite part of the day, to their natures kind of helps them be less extreme than they can be. So like Saturn has been a cold planet is warmed by the day. And Mars has been an extremely hot planet has a little bit cooled down by the night, which I I always thought was so beautiful. poetic.

Kyle Pierce 23:38

Yeah, I am not an expert on actually read a lot of comic books. But I like to think about it as I know at one point like Magneto was a good guy, right?

Joe G. 23:51

I think so. Yeah, ecology, you

Kyle Pierce 23:53

guys know that. I remember. Yeah, at some point, he was kind of a good guy. But then at some point, he got like, turned to a bad guy. And I think that it's kind of like how I like to think about it is like you're, you know, Saturn during the daytime. It's like Magneto before he returned or something where he's using his powers for good or, you know, even reverse it. I don't know of a good example of a villain that was you know, captured by the, the Superfriends or whatever and turned, but you know, it's like they have powers that can be used for good. And when they're sort of extreme nature is tamped down in some way. They become much more productive and much more helpful.

Tristan Paylor 24:36

Yeah, they're a little more a little more moderate and a little more balanced when they have that sort of opposing quality to balance them out a little bit. Yeah, feel like it might you know, since this is also a basics, basic intro to the planets episode, it might help to define benefic and malefic as well because those are important terms for planets. that play special roles in the system of astrology.

Joe G. 25:04

And that's also a thing that many people don't like to use because of just the word itself. malefic seems very scary.

Kyle Pierce 25:13

Yeah, I didn't like it at first for a long time either. And I think once they started really getting that one, Mars and Saturn can be more challenging, but then you kind of connect it with like those parts of your nature that do need to be managed, you know, that you can't just, you know, we all have that, that part of our personality that will, if left unchecked, will steer us into disaster, you know, that. That's your, your Mars and your Saturn. And I think having symbols for those elements of our nature is important. You know, ignoring that is not always the best or most helpful way to write things. But then you can also I mean, those are important distinctions, but you know, they do other things, obviously, then just deliver shit in your life, or just deliver wonderfulness in your life, there's more overlap between what the planets ultimately end up doing, based on a lot of other conditions.

Tristan Paylor 26:08

Yeah, I tend to define the Netfix as the planets that have the power to support and unify and harmonize and affirm which, you know, generally, we prefer those experiences, whereas the malefics have the power to separate or to destroy. And, you know, usually we don't enjoy those parts of life as much, but both sides are necessary. We need creation, and we need distraction. We need harmony and togetherness, but we also need separation, we need, you know, support and, you know, people who will say yes to us, but we also sometimes need people to say no, and that's an important role that the malefics play. So I tend to see it more, as you know, one is the more cohesive power and one is the more destructive power. And, you know, the malefics can also be a distraction as fun like there's satisfaction in building a giant Lego tower, and then just smashing it, and then creating it again. So there's, you know, there's sort of a cycle there of like creation and putting it all together. And it being all nicely adhered. And, you know, knocking it over and starting again, with potentially a new and better project. So you know, the, the word malefic sounds scary. The word destruction sounds scary, but it doesn't always have to be. Destruction can be a positive part of life. But it can also be genuinely difficult. And we need vocabulary and astrology to talk about stuff that is genuinely really hard, or it just becomes kind of a one dimensional language that can't really encapsulate all of our experiences. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce 27:50

you think of like a hammer. It's a melodic instrument, you know, you don't give it to a baby to play with in their crib. And you can, you can bludgeon someone to death with a hammer, but you can also use it to build a house, like you can do many things with those, those melodic instruments

Joe G. 28:06

also about just like the whole idea of the wheel of fortune, just the fact that like, for somebody to be on top of the wheel, somebody's gonna have to be at the bottom. And that's the thing that like, sent me on a whole philosophical crisis. Just like the nature of life, because even if you think about just the fact of like, going out and grabbing food, whether it's from an animal or not, I'll just use the animal. Example because it's a little bit more visceral. But it's a benefic event for you because you're getting food, but it's a very malefic event for that animal that just died. So absolutely, yeah, perfect. Always will just come, you know.

Kyle Pierce 28:49

Yeah, it is always relative to me, even with saying about, like, you know, what, for one person to be on one side of the wheel of fortune, you know, someone else has to be on the other side. And I'm talking about like civilization or some, you know, when we build civilization, we built cities, that's a lot of Venus and Jupiter, like bringing people together and unifying people under specific ideas, freed up certain people to be able to do things like invent astrology, or invent new things that make life better, but we actually have like a significant reduction in quality of life. Once we started living in cities, started getting diseases, sort of like sleeping in the same rooms with animals. And we're life expectancies just went way down, you know, so I mean, but it's always this kind of ever turning wheel, like the Zodiac

Tristan Paylor 29:41

thing, you know, unless we have more to say about sect or the distinction between phonetics and mil FX. Maybe we should jump into that SEMA Monday and talk about you know, what's going on in there and how did the planets come to be associated with certain science?

Joe G. 29:56

Actually, there's a thing that we haven't really mentioned just because we kind of brush through like mercury being like playing for both teams? Oh yeah, I think it's also important to say that mercury can be both MOF EQ and Ben Affleck. Ray Hamming on what's going on. And like, I think one of the major Ptolemy equalities, and one that's exclusive to Mercury is that of like absorption. So mercury will just absorb whatever is closest. So if Mercury is with a malefic, and becomes more monolithic, if it's with a benefit, it becomes remember nuffic. So, yeah,

Kyle Pierce 30:32

yeah. I'm glad you brought that up. And I figured we'll probably get more into that as we talk about mercury and even the moon to some degree to yes, they both have this similar, similar quality in that regard. I

Joe G. 30:46

think the sun to both the moon and the sun can be malefics and benefics, depending on the case.

Kyle Pierce 30:51

I agree. Yeah, it because you get really different ancient astrologers, like everyone wish are said that the sun is a genetic, which in the sense that you know, it's the life giving source? I would say so. Yeah. But didn't like Vedic Astrology. Sun, or at least being with the sun is is malefic. You know, burns Shut up.

Tristan Paylor 31:13

Yeah, the sun is good. If you're at just the perfect distance from it for it to create life. And if you're anywhere else, it's too hot or too cold, you know, so it's, it's touchy. And as we'll probably discuss, when we get to the sun, when planets are too close to the Sun astrologically it's, it's tough because you're basically jumping into the furnace as it were, it's not a pleasant experience.

Kyle Pierce 31:38

But the moment you write, I'm gonna pull it up here.

Joe G. 31:41

Yeah, Moon time.

Tristan Paylor 31:44

Moon time, best time. depends,

Kyle Pierce 31:47

depends on the moon.

Tristan Paylor 31:56

And I think it depends is a very good key phrase for the

Kyle Pierce 32:00

habits nap yet.

Tristan Paylor 32:05

So we have the you know, what is called the birth chart of the world. And we will have a visual of it in the show notes if people want to take a look at it. And what the thema Mundi shows are what are called the domicile assignments for all of the seven traditional planets. You can see the moon in cancer in the first house, and the sun in Leo, in the theme of Monday, second house. So everything kind of starts with the luminaries, the luminaries are really central to astrology, and then everything else is kind of arranged relative to them. So you have, you know, the planet that is right next to the sun as Mercury because it travels so close to the sun, and then Venus. They're all in in order of how close they are to the sun. And that's sort of the rationale for why you know, the sun and the moon, rule Leo and cancer because those are the summer signs, that's when the light is brightest. So it makes the most sense to give those signs to the luminaries who are responsible for giving light and power to the whole system. And then you know, the other planets are arranged based on their relationship with the sun. And that's how they end up getting you know, what, what are the signs? What's the sign closest to Leo, that's where that's where Mercury goes. And that's for go.

Kyle Pierce 33:38

One of you might know, like, the bedtime story version of the moon Monday, better than I do. But I think it was something like the, you know, the sun showed up in the solar system, and the other planets were like, Oh, my God, too hot. And so mercury, you know, ran off into Virgo. And it's like, okay, this is my home. I'm cool here and then Venus ran off into Libra and was like, Okay, I'll settle here. Mars into Scorpio, Jupiter into Sagittarius, Saturn into Capricorn, something like that.

Tristan Paylor 34:07

Yeah, so it's, it's from Persian astrology. Right? Am I getting that right? Or it's sort of a narrative of how the theme of Mundi arranged itself and yeah, the basic, the basic problem in the narrative is the sun is too damn hot. And everyone's trying to trying to find a place that isn't right. And they settled into the theme of Monday.

Kyle Pierce 34:28

Yeah, it goes in order from each planets, you know, distance from the sun actually ends up being like very elegant. And I believe that part of the justification for cancer being the rising sign of the world or the cosmos, I think it was in ancient Egypt that when the the Nile would flood, it was like the life giving time of the of the year like everything, their whole civilization was built around the flooding of the Nile. And right when that would happen, that was when cancer would be rising in the mortise.

Joe G. 34:59

Area Celaya Yeah, exactly.

Tristan Paylor 35:02

Yeah. And Sirius was in cancer. So it would be that sort of time. Yeah. That was seen as the life giving time. And cancer would be on the ascendant because Sirius would be rising over the horizon. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 35:19

I also, you know, one of them being a cancer rising, I like that cancer rising as the first the first house of the world and in the sense is that, you know, the moon signifies bodies, you know, it's like the containing planet for everybody. And what does everybody have? Everybody has a body.

Joe G. 35:35

And I think like, I think one of the the main ideas to with the moon and this idea of like, the moon being so close to two ideas centered around the body is that one of the big things and I don't know where the idea comes from, is that like, the fastest something moves, the closest it is to like carnal life. And the slower it is, the more like out there and the closest to like God or like the Godhead it is Yeah. So like the moon being so close to the Earth, and also being like, the one thing that gets at least somewhat close to the, to the time of the motion of like the ascendant because the ascendant really is the thing that moves the fastest and the whole thing and then the moon comes second, I think that those two interplay, really nicely specially like having the moon in cancer at the ascendant, it's maybe drawing a parallel, like, Look these two things fast. It's, it's of the pace of life on Earth is so yeah, go

Kyle Pierce 36:34

well, like the nature of of our lives is that they're impermanent, you know, that they, we go through a cycle, you know, we were born and we go through many cycles, many stages, and then eventually die, but like life goes on beyond us.

Tristan Paylor 36:48

Yeah, I love that. And also just that, you know, sort of meeting the Ascendant is the meeting place of the ground with the sky, it is the horizon. The first house represents that meeting, you know, between mind and body, or spirit and body or however you want to conceptualize it. And the moon has a similar kind of symbolism.

Kyle Pierce 37:09

Yeah. Yeah. So should we officially start talking about the moon this point?

Joe G. 37:18

Oh, I thought we were.

Kyle Pierce 37:23

So the moon, basic significations for the moon. What do you guys got keywords?

Tristan Paylor 37:29

Caregivers, nurturing, you know, what? What provides sustenance for life and comfort makes life comfortable

Kyle Pierce 37:37

home and family.

Joe G. 37:40

One thing that I always like to bring up with the moon, because it often gets attributed to Venus, I think is also just the idea of like dance and flexibility. Because the moon has this whole idea of like movement. Yeah. So I think that anything that moves as like a primary sort of focus is very lunar. Yeah.

Tristan Paylor 38:01

This is why as a cancer rising, I cannot sit still.

Kyle Pierce 38:08

Yeah, I think it's a good point. The changeability of the moon is very important. Stability even and receptivity.

Tristan Paylor 38:17

Yes, that's the the one that receives the sun's light and reflection, you know, as another quality of the moon that it reflects light and reflects what's going on around it. Yeah, I think I want to say it was Abu Bashar medieval astrologer who said, the moon is king with kings and a servant with servants. So wherever the moon is, she kind of you know, takes on the qualities of the people or the environment who are closest to her and can play many roles.

Kyle Pierce 38:49

Yeah. This is why I like thinking of the moon as is just like the body part of being a person formerly, which I mean, you get your, like your chemistry, you know, like your brain chemistry, your your body chemistry, your physical makeup is very lunar in the sense that it is prone to change. It's also very much at the influence of the environment, and very much defined by you know, your early childhood experiences. You tend to like, keep that chemistry your whole life. Probably the other half of it is like what you're genetically predisposed to.

Tristan Paylor 39:21

Right? Definitely.

Joe G. 39:23

I think also, no, just with the idea of flexibility to just like the idea of like shape shifting like we were saying like being with kings and being with the peasants. It's like, the moon literally shaped shit. Oh, yeah,

Kyle Pierce 39:34

I definitely think cancer risings probably find it easy. And I just noticed whenever you're in a group of people, you just sort of naturally respond to the way other you know you pick up on the the mood and the vibes of that crowd or whatever and you just sort of mold and mesh into it a little bit. Even when you don't want to do

Tristan Paylor 40:01

And that it lends itself to the symbolism of comfort and familiarity that goes with the moon lunar people make you feel at ease and make you feel comfortable and the way that they can sort of take the shape of their environment and sort of conform to what's the norm or expected for that environment makes them seem like the sort of comforting, you know, person next door in any environment, they find themselves and so people immediately feel safe. And they feel like, Oh, I understand this person, and this person understands me. Which, you know, for people who are very lunar, having people come up and just drop their entire life story on you is a very common experience.

Joe G. 40:41

I love that though. I drag it out of people.

Tristan Paylor 40:45

I have no problem with it.

Joe G. 40:48

Tell me like no small talk, please. Oh, yeah, I cannot handle that.

Kyle Pierce 40:52

Only tell me your most deep personal traumas. 100%.

Joe G. 40:57

And also, one thing that just came up too, because now that we have Neptune Neptune gets a lot of those significations. But traditionally, the moon was the planet associated with illusions in the dream realm, and no of those things as well. Anything then that's a little bit more of like, the malefic side of the moon, how like, sometimes she can shape shift so well, that it can also be a little bit hard to know what she's up to. Because if she, she wants to do something nasty, where she looks very pleasing, she can do that. And she will be there very well. Yeah,

Tristan Paylor 41:34

yeah, I think it's important to remember that werewolves are lunar creatures, even on the symbolism of transformation and nighttime, but it's actually kind of terrifying. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 41:43

Well, yeah, and you do get a lot of No, you can get like desire and stuff from Venus and Mars, but I mean, the moon, it's like, you know, being hungry, you know, the things that you you need, in a sense, but like the things that you're, like, crave, I don't know how there's like a, there's a heavy desirous component to the moon. So it's like when thick bodies you know, that constantly need more food, they're never really fully satisfied. And it's probably why I mean, you get a lot the other we're gonna go too deep into the nodes. But, um, you know, the north and south node, the, they're the nodes of the moon, and very much speak to that quality of, of desire, or lack thereof.

Joe G. 42:31

Right? Yeah, hunger

Tristan Paylor 42:32

is a very good lunar word. It's also a good werewolf. Yeah. And it all ties together or it's like, that's the extreme of the Moon is the extreme hunger and the sort of the recognition that there's this, this never ending cycle and the sort of impermanence like eating is not permanent, you're not permanently full, you empty again, and then you have to feed yourself again. And that state of constant change and impermanence is represented by the moon. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce 43:01

Yeah. And I mean, your hungers and desires can lead you in, you know, to success. It's a kind of drives you to do stuff and go out there and get things and achieve things. But it can also, you know, lead you into bad situations as well. It can be malefic for you can malefic for other people. If you if you get hungry enough. Just ask the Donner party.

Joe G. 43:24

Right. And I think one of the things too, that's important to mention with the moon is just the idea of like a waxing moon versus the waning moon. And yeah, that's the thing that every planet goes through. And like people often do, like mention that because it happens less often, of course, but every planet waxes and wanes, but the moon is the one that is both more evident just because of how big she looks in the sky. And that happens the most often as well. So I guess that that sense of like changing from like, giving but also taking in being the one responsible for like carrying those significations to the physical and the tangible world is also like, an important thing to think about with the moon.

Tristan Paylor 44:11

I'm thinking of containers as well as being another the moon symbolizes containers. And even when you look at the crescent moon, it literally looks like a cup. And so as the moon waxes and wanes, it's like the cup is filling and the cup is empty and over and over again.

Joe G. 44:27

And that also I like how you say that because containers are also like a very Saturnian thing. And yet we can see like the, like the parallels between moon and Saturn even though like they, they oppose one another in the theme of Monday, like both of them are supposed to represent the sense of like, tangibility or carnality. Like Saturn is like the very limit of how you can push the carnal existence right now is immune is like where you start and where all that is born and comes for

Tristan Paylor 44:59

ya. That's a very good point. Even their, their glyphs are similar, where Saturn has that crescent shape, and its glyph. And the moon looks like like the Glyph of Saturn looks like a sickle and the moon also looks like a sickle.

Kyle Pierce 45:15

Yeah, I kind of like to think of just like seeing the crescent moon to it's like a scooper, you know, like, to bring things up. And I like to think about that with like, the cycle is it's, you know, it's starts with the new moon, which is kind of like, maybe we're like the cup. The scoop is like, you know, fully it's in the water, if you will, and then it like kind of goes through the cycle of like filling, and then kind of dumping it back out, releasing the light, you know, or water or whatever, right? Whatever connections it's making. And that's you also get the moon associated with like collectors, collections. Accumulation of things, means actually reporting for wealth,

Tristan Paylor 45:57

yeah, comes up quite a lot in the medieval tradition, I think in connection with with wealth. And I mean, it is also we tend to think of the sun and Jupiter as representing authority, but the moon, you know, was considered the Queen, right, the sun and the moon being the luminaries are sort of their royalty, they're the source of power in, in the whole system. And so in ancient astrology, you know, the moon was associated with the queen, and with people who, you know, had authority over the common people. So you do get a bit of that. And also, you know, because in the moon often represents our parents, like, our early experiences of caregiving are, you know, they're not only our caregivers, but our earliest experiences of authority. Yeah. So that like, you know, their authority, kind of tight authority, and queenship also kind of ties in with wealth a little bit as well, you can see all those symbols kind of tied together with them.

Joe G. 46:56

One thing that I also like to think about whenever I'm talking about planets, because that's a major piece of how I interpret planets and signs is also just taking into consideration like the planetary qualities because I think we've, we've mentioned that because the moon does have this absorptive nature because she reflects the light. On her own accord, she's cooling and moistening. So she brings a little bit of that, the comfort of like things like milk, and like aloe vera, very, like viscous, but they kind of really just like calm me down, at least to the under, it's like nice and gentle. Yeah,

Tristan Paylor 47:34

and can mucilage the plants there's that sort of thick, liquid gel like liquid that occurs in some plants. And it can actually be used in herbal medicine to sue this sore throat and stuff like that, that kind of coats the scratchiness and makes everything smoother and more comfortable.

Kyle Pierce 47:54

So think of like things that you get like sensitivity, but like things that require specific conditions. Like you know, the skin, people, some people have, like, very sensitive skin that reacts very strongly to different substances. People also bodies, you know, have a very specific set of conditions that they need to stay alive. And fortunately, the earth provides for most of those, but we have to adorn ourselves with lots of clothes and different things to survive. places like Michigan or Canada, especially this time of the year, where you start wondering why the hell does anyone live here. But that also kind of talks about like the adaptability of the moon to you know, like it, it finds what it needs, it makes use of what it has around it to create that security and comfort.

Joe G. 48:44

And just beginning of like bodies and things like that. I always I just I just remembered how, like Jupiter who's exalted by the moon because the moon rules cancer. Out of all the body fluids Jupiter's set to root and like the moon as exalting being like the the archetype. Yeah. I mean, I think the moon is like, the sexiest planet beyond even because, you know, you wouldn't have sensuality if you didn't have a body and if the moon is supposed to represent the body, I think she takes the, the ultimate sexiness. Yeah. Of the whole Zodiac. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce 49:27

that's a good point, too. And actually makes me want to maybe reference because, you know, not everybody, especially nowadays uses the, you know, the masculine feminine distinction. And like, I don't really lean on it too heavily. Especially because, like Mesopotamia, like ancient Mesopotamia. Even like in Germany, they use like masculine pronouns for the moon.

Tristan Paylor 49:50

Yeah, the moon was a god and the sun was a goddess. Yeah, and Norse and Germanic mythology. Same thing in Japanese, I think Like to Yeah, that's right. It's a sun goddess and in Japan? Um, yeah,

Kyle Pierce 50:05

I think that I mean, the moon tends to, like we've already kind of, you know, reference a lot of those qualities that the moon has, or signifies that we tend to associate with, with feminine figures are feminine qualities. But as we'll probably get more into with the sun, I know like one of the ways that they know that we, you know, have access to like DNA and stuff and tracking the movements of like the migration patterns of ancient humans. We do that by following the was it the X chromosome, whatever, where, wherever it goes, because, like, the old days, like the men would go out, and they would, you know, maybe they would kill people and raid and grab stuff and take what they need and bring them back, bring it back home, but whenever they wanted to move somewhere, they took the women with them. And to me, I almost like think a little bit about the sun in that sense, because it's like the the women represented the the central body of the society. And as you know, the sun does, it's the center of gravity, you know, that we all rotate around in the moon is like out there kind of collecting and doing things, but the sun is there as like the stable centerpiece.

Joe G. 51:20

Right. And I think even in the orphic him actually, they refer to the moon as like, female and male. Like, that's like one of the lines. Yeah,

Tristan Paylor 51:31

that's my favorite line in any of the ortho camps. I always I try to read that during full and new moons. And it always makes me happy. I'm like, I'm a cancer rising. You understand me?

Kyle Pierce 51:45

Well, no, yeah. And everybody like has, you know, both masculine and feminine qualities are whatever, you know, I think of like the Inuits have like 30 different words for the color of white, which isn't actually it's not 30 different words for the color white, it's just a recognition of 30 different shades of white. Wow, we just have one word for white and like, oh, that's all white, you know, but they recognize all the different layers and shades of it. Wow, you know, I think planets in how we say, Oh, that's a masculine planet, that's a feminine planet. You know, while it's useful, maybe to some degree, because it's like saying that, like that color is white. It's not really recognizing the many shades that it exists there,

Joe G. 52:22

right. But this is probably going on attention. But since we're talking about planets, it's probably important to mention, because even like Venus is said to be masculine when she's like, morning. Oh, yeah. And she's feminine when she's an evening, evening star and Mars also gets to have a little bit of a reversal in that regard. So I think if we're to reframe gender, with planets, I think a good way to do that would be to recognize planets as being like blue ambiguous as far as gender goes and they kind of just like go in this like soup. Yeah, and sometimes are hyper masks sometimes you're hyper femme sometimes you're like, in the middle sometimes you're like a quarter way one quarter way the other who knows?

Tristan Paylor 53:16

Yeah, yeah, I think like the sign that they're in as well as, like, you were saying, if they're in a morning or evening part of their synoptic cycle effects, you know, in ancient astrology, that was also a consideration for how masculine or feminine the planet was thought to be.

Joe G. 53:34

So I guess for the listeners a good way of like, distinguishing the moon, like from like, her masculine face to her feminine face, like how do you guys how would you guys do that? Would you go a new moon as being feminine and full moon as being masculine or the other way around?

Kyle Pierce 53:52

I mean, I guess I, I wish that we had, you know, maybe more words, to recognize the different shades of it. But I mean, I guess, you know, they have the qualities that maybe we associate with the broad term of like, masculine, probably more of the waxing moon, you know, the, when it's collecting aspects when it's growing and rising and strength and then when it's, you know, waning it's mortar disseminating. But then he I mean, he could say that when when it's collecting light, it's more receptive in a sense, but you get you know, the moon degrees probably more energetic more active when it is collecting when it's waxing then I guess you can also look at like the sign it's in a fire or Air sign I get a little more of the air quotes masculine moon but yeah, I don't I don't know. It's it's, it's actually I, I'm thinking about like, well, what aspects are the moon is to make You know, I guess I don't necessarily like always look at it and like that paradigm.

Tristan Paylor 55:04

Yeah, I've completely thrown out masculine and feminine from my astrology vocabulary. Because really like, yeah, like, what more? Well, it's yeah, it's just like there are so many problems with it. And really, at the end of the day, what you're trying to communicate can be communicated with better and more specific words. You know, like, what we're really trying to say, when we say a planet is masculine, is we're trying to say that it's more visible, more active. Just use those words, you know, just use the words that directly communicate what you're trying to say. Because people of all gender identities can have those qualities so it's kind of like not the most accurate or helpful system to use feminine as a code word for you know, something being more inward focused and reflective, just say inward focused and reflective, then yes, feminine people are, are you know, people who identify more with femininity, can be super active and outward focused and extroverted. And people who are more mask identified can be super inward focused and reflective, like it's not necessarily a gender thing. It's just a state of being Yeah,

Joe G. 56:19

cool. Do you do you use, like, diurnal nocturnal?

Tristan Paylor 56:25

I do like diurnal? Sometimes, yeah. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's what I've been using for polarity. And dividing up the signs, I use diurnal or nocturnal,

Kyle Pierce 56:36

or just like maybe, like inherent receptivity. Like if it's a more of a receding, active or an active, forceful planet, you know, putting things out or is it bringing things in?

Joe G. 56:52

Yeah, cuz I think diurnal. And nocturnal also really embodies all of those keyboards in the same way with just with a different word, like, at night you sleep, you're more passive. During the day, or awake, the sun is,

Kyle Pierce 57:06

yeah, more relaxed. You know, I love the nighttime because you can, that's when uh, you know, I do the most reading or watch some Netflix or something like you're, you take in, take in information, while you know, you're out. Doing your day, during the daytime.

Tristan Paylor 57:23

I think one final thing I think I'd like to say about the moon, you know, in terms of what it represents, and what it can represent in a chart is, you know, related to its quality of ruling the nighttime, you know, It rules the part of us that is unconscious, that is sort of working behind the scenes, dreams and insights that sort of come up from the depths of our minds, you know, there's, in psychology, you talk about parallel processing, or dual processing, where the mind is like, you have a two track mind, there's the conscious mind, which is actually just like a very small part of what's going on. And then there's all of the psychological processing that's going on, beneath or behind your conscious awareness. And if you weren't consciously aware of it, it would drive you nuts. Because you're just taking you're taking in so much information all the time. The moon kind of represents that that other track that we don't always see where we're taking in all this information from our senses, and our minds, our bodies are processing all of that information. And, you know, when you are trying to solve a problem, you can often only get so far using that active conscious mental processing. But if you actually sleep on it, if you if you moon on it, you'll wake up and be closer to a solution. Because you let that sort of lunar part of yourself work through the problem. And then it sort of bubbles up into consciousness. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce 58:56

that's actually a really glad you referenced that. Because a big component of the moon is memory. Literally sleeping is how you your brain like locks in all the information that you collected for the day. Otherwise, you know, if you don't get enough sleep, you have a hard time remembering stuff. And I also think about the moon and like in Vedic Astrology that they say that the mind you know, but like the mind is a very broad term, but it's kind of like that chemical, emotional mind, you know, the stuff you do instinctively, that unconscious stuff that is really responsible for 90% or more of what you do every day. But it's yeah, it's like your, like your, your visceral reactions to things and, you know, your security oriented mind

Joe G. 59:46

goes back to what we were saying about the moon is like a container like it's the thing that contains all those memories and all of those experiences.

Kyle Pierce 59:55

The container the collector,

Tristan Paylor 59:58

on the the earlier Topic of bending rules and defying categories and coming up with new ways to categorize things. Should we maybe move on to Mercury?

Kyle Pierce 1:00:08

We're gonna do Mercury before the sun.

Joe G. 1:00:12

Second best one.

Tristan Paylor 1:00:14

Right, we're following the theme. Now, you're right. No, I was I was going in the Chaldean order. And we were going by the screw this up, going. Oh,

Kyle Pierce 1:00:26

oh, yeah, we'll talk about the sun, I guess. Yeah, Brenda Joji has the sun right on the first house, right?

Joe G. 1:00:34

Yeah, right at the ascendant.

Tristan Paylor 1:00:37

So say that you're the most qualified to introduce this and

Kyle Pierce 1:00:40

moon and Leo as well. So

Joe G. 1:00:42

that's true. Well, Mmm hmm. How do I like to think of the sun. And that's the thing that I wrestle with a lot just because thinking about rulership and domicile. And not just because I have like the sun and moon exchanging signs. But I think that when we talk about like Cancer and Leo, like the signs of the luminaries, I don't think it's necessarily just like, oh, the sun does well, in cancer, the sun does well in Leo, and then the moon does well, in cancer, I think they both have this ability to exchange, that same sort of rulership, because I think, especially if we're talking about like, like about smashing the patriarchy and all those topics, like the sun can take the role of the archetypal queen, just the same as the moon can take the role of the archetypal King. Yeah. And I think that even this idea of the sun, as a, like, active, or, I guess, penetrating light, that light is only ever perceived if there's someone to receive it. So in that same shorter way, I think one of the things that's really connected with the sun as mirrors, so I think like the sun, as much as it's the thing emanating the light, it still needs that a little bit of like that reflection to be able to perceive itself. And I think then, that's why the Moon and the Sun have like this really good relationship, because the sun is willing to shine the light, the moon is willing to reflect it back to the sun, so they can both see each other and like tea, and then take care of everything together. Yeah. So I think, yeah, I don't know, that was a bit of a rambling, I don't know, where I was going with that. That was actually,

Kyle Pierce 1:02:45

that was a great introduction. Beautiful, I feel like the sun absolutely needs the moon and the other planets to the wise, it's just like the sun, it's just there. It's like, if a tree falls in the woods, nobody's around to hear it does it make a sound like the the sun is very much its existence is validated in a sense, by having it being witnessed being perceived, having other planets or having other people, you know, to, to witness them. And I think that, that really tells you a lot about what the sun represents in the chart is that I mean, you get visibility, but that, that seeing and being seen that there is a interesting thing with the sun that you also kind of get with Saturn. So we're talking about the theme of Monday, Saturn gets the signs that oppose the signs of the luminaries, and so where, say the sun represents, you know, knowledge, things that are brought to light things that are visible things that are seen, Saturn goes to represent like ignorance, but the sun has this way of when plants get too close to it, hiding them blocking them in so unlike in similar way, like the sun can have this way of blinding of creating too much light and you can get blockage or sort of ignorance, in that sense too much light, you know, while Saturn can create a sort of wisdom and sense of knowledge by defining the boundary by by the end of things becomes irrelevant, because a big part of the Sun is is that knowledge component. But I guess, you know, you differentiate it from the moon in the sense or mercury or other planets in the sensitive it just it's like, the sun just kind of is in essence like it's just kind of what you know, that that inner eternal sense of knowing. And I think traditionally would be like the spirit right? The the soul the the souls ability to perceive, you know, it's just it's perception itself.

Tristan Paylor 1:04:48

Yeah, it's, I mean, in Hellenistic astrology it is connected to the mind which is interesting because you know, we usually think of mercury as being the mind but the sun is very explicitly connected to the mind and to knowledge and knowing because knowing is sort of metaphorically connected to seeing invisibility, like you're saying things being brought to light. And I think, you know, being the sun and the moon kind of work together as a pair. And, you know, if you're thinking about the two track mind, where the moon is, the unconscious part of it, the sun is the conscious part of it, it's our active awareness, it's our self awareness, it's, you know, if we're attempting to create something or solve a problem, it's that part of our mind that is actively trying to solve it, or to create something or to seek out information or resources that will help us to, to do that.

Joe G. 1:05:46

Right. And also, one other thing, too, is that nowadays goes to Neptune, but it's also very solar, traditionally, just the idea of like, like, you're seeing spirit, but just spirituality as a whole. Oh, yeah. Like some, especially the sun being. And its joy in the ninth house, in the house of like, religion and philosophy, like, the sun is like that ultimate knowing it's like the knowing of the ineffable, like what cannot be known, the sun knows that sort of thing.

Tristan Paylor 1:06:19

Yeah, it's sort of like what can only be known through experience. It's, it's interesting that, you know, Mercury travels so close to the sun and represents language and communication. And it's sort of like the sun is our direct experience of the Divine or of the sacred, and Mercury is our attempt to find words or symbols to be able to talk about those experiences, but they always fall short of Oh, yeah, the direct experience of the sacred, we can never truly define it, or make it concrete.

Kyle Pierce 1:06:50

Yeah. I feel like I end up referencing this book a lot. But um, one of my favorite books growing up was a book called Stranger in a Strange Land, about a human that grew up on Mars. And it was raised by martians. And then he goes to Earth, and he's this alien human basically trying to figure out how to be a person. But my point is that, that the Martians had this word called grok. It's a made up word. But it's basically the idea of like, when you grok something, you know something. So well, you grok the fullness is what they would say, is, like, you know, something is to the point where it's internalized, where you don't even have to talk about it anymore. You don't have to pontificate or do anything. It's just, it's just there, it's in you. And it's part of you, it's like part of your your spirit and, and then you just kind of emanate that energy, that wisdom. Because I know the mind comes up a lot we say like, oh, the moon is the mind, but Mercury is the mind suns, the mind. And I think all the planets have a component in the mind, but it's maybe where we're sort of limited by language, like you're saying, with mercury trying to translate all the all these things, we're limited by, by the language we have to describe these things. And it's actually thinking like linguistics, that so much about the language and the words they have for different things really defines you know, the way the society works the way that people work. And you know, you can be kind of handicapped by your language to some degree, but you're also like empowered by it.

Tristan Paylor 1:08:31

Yeah, prophecy is one that you know comes up in ancient astrology as a as a signification of the sun that connection to the Spirit into the mind and the divine where the sun is just such an obviously divine looking thing like you know, and polytheistic religions is pretty universal that there is a solar to add that is very important, or you know, important deities are associated with the sun in some way. And so that communication between the divine and the human are between you know, the spiritual world and the mundane world is well represented by the sun. So you know, getting we have the sun prominent in your chart, you know, and you're interested in astrology or divination, or communicating with the other side in some way that's actually like, that is a signification of of a strongly placed son is you know, actually receiving communications from the Divine or from the spiritual.

Kyle Pierce 1:09:27

Yeah. So are you consistently? Oh, no,

Joe G. 1:09:30

I was just gonna say about, like, even the the ancient stories of like the ascent to and whenever people would go on like this deep meditative state to try and meet God. It's always like these very similar metaphors of like, they go all the way up and they get there but they never get to see the actual oneness at all, they only get to see the throne, because because the king is just like so big and so on. all encompassing the if you look at him, you're you're burnt. And you're you die.

Kyle Pierce 1:10:05

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, you get like the Aerosmith to get so much about the sun and its relationship with wisdom but also it's like being too much, you know, like Christian I'm gonna say mythology sorry Christians but in Christian mythology you know you have the Eve being tempted by the, the tree of knowledge of good and evil, right and she ate the apple and this whole idea that like certain knowledge is bad. And that kind of idea of the sun, like being too close to the Sun is using air quotes again bad, but it's like you're going so deep into the divine for lack of a better word, it's like we don't have the equipment to fully right, to gather that kind of light. Right? And when you think of like the the Zodiac being sort of like the gods and the planets like the little communicators. For us here on Earth, the Sun is like our own little piece of God that's like, right, right here with us. That's like our kind of personal source.

Joe G. 1:11:04

Right? And even with like the whole, like, like, you're saying, I'll go with Smith, of like, of Eden eaten and like the Apple and all of that. I think that because it's been translated so many times, I think there's, there's the potential potential that it's not so much about what should not be known. But it's more about like, what cannot be known. Because like, especially if we're talking about the sun has this standing symbol for like, the idea of oneness, there is no way to really get to, like, true oneness. Because if you get there, you're not yourself anymore. You're you cannot.

Kyle Pierce 1:11:49

Yeah, yeah, then you just are it, you just know it all. It's all there. And it's you, and you're it and it's you. And but then you can't taking that back out into the world and translating it, it's Yeah, it'll fall to pieces, you know, it's, it's the, the, the known and the unknowable.

Tristan Paylor 1:12:10

Yeah, that sort of, you know, and planets fly too close to the sun, that metaphor, they're, you know, they've, they've gotten close to something that will consume them, if you become part of the oneness, you cease to be a unique individual being and so you are consumed. And I think that is one interpretation that's often used for under the beams is that the planet can't act according to its own agency anymore, it becomes essentially part of the sun's agency, and it loses its whole sense of self, its whole identity, and whatever goals that might have had, are gone, because it is just seven schools now swept up.

Joe G. 1:12:45

And I think that's the malefic side of the sun that we can see sometimes, especially when people talk about, like the sun related to to ego and ego ism, and all of that. We can also be consumed by our own sort of sons sort of thing to the point where you just become so big that you cannot see anything but yourself. And that's like, the misguided sense of oneness that can come from Oh,

Kyle Pierce 1:13:10

yeah. Yeah, I feel like I live that one a lot. And Jupiter, in the heart of the sun. And I feel like sometimes I you know, I get little pieces of stuff that I can maybe translate but so much, it can be consuming, you know, the desire to know more can take you on very interesting adventures, but you can get lost very easily and lose your way and lose track. And me speaking of the Sun as the moon is the queen than the sun would be the king in the signification for the sun as its kings are authority figures, or political figures even. And I like to think of planets approaching the sun that are in that under the beam zone, and they're like in the king's court. And that can be a dangerous place. Maybe trying to share in the power of the sun or work for the Kings agenda. But if you ever watch Game of Thrones, you know, that can get pretty dicey.

Tristan Paylor 1:14:08

Yeah, if the king is gonna get angry at anybody, yeah, you don't want to be in that line of fire, like right in, you know, within the court in line of sight. We think another thing that the sun, you know, represents in a chart is centrality. You know, because we've talked a bit about it being you know, the thing that has the most gravitational pole in the solar system, it's what's whole at what it is what holds the entire solar system together, keeps it spinning. And I think that can be a trait of very similar type people. Is that out sorry. Dog is crushing a beggar. Welcome to the show. He has to make an appearance. Yeah, that is. As soon as we started talking about the moon he came in which I predicted would happen because he does have the sun and needed to be part of that conversation. Yeah, just to say that, that solar personalities can have that quality of sort of attracting a crowd, or everybody tends to sort of gather or rotate around them, whether or not you necessarily want to be a leader, there's just a tendency to sort of have people like flock around you and sort of wants to bask in your light a little bit.

Joe G. 1:15:42

Right. And there's also like, the, just this idea of like attention, sometimes it can be the bad kind of attention to, sometimes you want to be unknown, but then you keep drawing everyone's attention for the wrong reasons. And I think that's also a very similar thing.

Tristan Paylor 1:15:58

Yeah, you've just told my life story, someone with the sun and Aries in the 10th house, and just like, I really just want to blend it, like I'm a cancer rising, I just want to blend in and not be noticed. But I can't not be noticed. And wherever I go, I tend to stand out. And it's like, I don't intentionally want this. And it's often I'm often getting the wrong kind of attention or attention that I don't want, but I just I can't avoid getting some kind of attention. Yeah, it'd be nice to just like, be stealthy and slipped through life without being noticed. But the sun in Aries in the 10th house is like no, wherever I go, it's like, it's, it's like playing a heavily armored character in a fantasy game, you're never gonna sell that dungeon you're walking through in that shiny gold armor and all the candle is reflecting off of it, and you're clattering and banging, you know, knocking stuff over like, they know you're there.

Kyle Pierce 1:16:53

I know, it always sounds like I'm giving Leo's a hard time. But Leo rising, it's always so interesting to me, in the seeing where the sun is in the chart, it tells you so much about you know how where they're at, on their quest to, to be seen, like they want to, you know, I think that's like a central driving force of, of the sun. Think of like the sun as its home in Leo. It's cultivating Leo, you know, it's trying to get the sun at different points in the Zodiac is maybe better or worse, or, you know, has a harder time more of a more of a struggle here. It's an easier time in this way than another way. But like you were saying, that seeking out of attention and sometimes getting the wrong kind. And sometimes, you know, getting it when you don't really want it

Joe G. 1:17:41

right. But I think also one of the things with with the sun that people often don't talk about, because we usually jump to this, the, the attention keyboard, especially with like Leo and all that. But I think just as much as Leo wants to be seen, it goes back to that also wanting to make other species because everything else in the universe is visible because of the sun as well. So I think the sun really not only is like this visible thing, but it tries to bring everything with it to this like pedestal, so everyone can be on top. But then once everyone's on top of it ruins the sun.

Tristan Paylor 1:18:24

That is something that I do always like to bring up when I am talking about the sun or talking about Leo, especially with a client is just like, there's a reason that people want to gather around that solar light, there's a reason that it is attractive and gravitational and people are pulled to it. Because when you see that light shining, it gives you permission to shine your light as well. And, you know, potentially makes you more visible, you know, So Leo, and the sun is not just about like me, me, me, I'm centerstage everyone looked at me like the whole stereotype. It's actually about sharing, like the sun is about emanating. Right. So it's about sharing that light and making everybody visible. And I think like some of the best examples I've seen of the Sun in action are people who express their sun in a way that brings light to people or to issues that tend to be hidden in the darkness are swept under the rug that people don't want to look at don't want to think about the sun, you know, at its best is saying no, like, you have to look at this, you want to avoid this issue or, you know, you want to ostracize or alienate this group of people because you know, you want to ignore something, or you want to, you know, ignore the part that you've played in their alienation. But I'm not going to let that happen. Like I'm going to shine a light on this issue and make sure that you know, these voices are heard and these people and situations are seen and talked about and problems are actually resolved because we're aware of them and paying attention to them.

Kyle Pierce 1:20:00

Yeah, just as much as like the sun is about being seen, it's about seeing, it's about witnessing and, you know, people will prominent sons, like they're very good at recognizing the qualities of other people, and even kind of ties in with another important signification of the Sun, which is selection. Mm hmm. It's the choosing and the selecting the preference mechanism, the identifying of, of qualities, the identifying of things like the sun sort of casting its light, that I think is a big component of like, why we're drawn to the sun or why people are drawn to, to solar people, because, you know, they want to be they want to be seen, and they want to kind of go to those people for advice. Like, what do you see? You know, what do you see in me, it's hard to see yourself, right? You kind of need other people to, to cast light on, on you to identify things you know, about yourself. That's how you learn.

Tristan Paylor 1:20:56

I'm thinking of that sense of being chosen or called, you know, we all you know, who, who doesn't? Yeah, who doesn't want to feel chosen Right? Or, you know, being being the first person chosen for the team when you're in school feels good, you know that that person like pointing at you and saying, I want you on my team, like the sun makes us feel like that at its best.

Kyle Pierce 1:21:17

It makes me want to so this is gonna come up I think when we're talking about all the planets is that there's a duality like and all the all the planets and their significations. But you can even see that with like the opposite sign like Aquarius, which is the, you know, the opposite sign of Leo, where the sun is in set to be its detriment, you know, or its exile. I always think of the Ganymede myth, and how Ganymede was the chosen one, he was chosen and selected by Zeus. But that had a separating quality and for Ganymede, isolated him as opposed to making him part of any one group.

Joe G. 1:21:53

Because, but that's actually a really good point. Because this is a thing that I think about, like around the debate of like just the rich and the people who have all this sort of privilege. I think that also like one thing that is often that we often overlook is the fact that for you to get to that, that point where you have so much power, that you literally have the world at your fingertips, like no human brain is equipped to handle that. And good and healthy way. So I think that like the the bad side of or like the challenging side of sun or solar energy too, is that it can be like, just too much.

Kyle Pierce 1:22:38

Totally. That is the I mean, that's Yeah, but the sun it's like any planet really and maybe in its most natural state, you know if it's like in its own sign. It's very good at being itself, but it is also I think all the planets have sort of like a fatal flaw right? built into them. They're like two empowered, they will kind of lean into the into both in the sense. It's like having to make me think have you guys watched squid game?

Joe G. 1:23:07

No, I didn't. I think you're you're muted.

Kyle Pierce 1:23:09

Kristen. Are you eating? Oh, you didn't watch it or I won't. I won't. I'll save my story then. All right, won't say

Tristan Paylor 1:23:16

I haven't watched her.

Kyle Pierce 1:23:19

Watch good game.

Tristan Paylor 1:23:22

My dog is honking your dogs.

It got real chaotic.

Kyle Pierce 1:23:31

Second, but yeah. Is there more that we want to say in the sun or mercury?

Joe G. 1:23:37

I'm always ready to move on to Mercury.

Kyle Pierce 1:23:42

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Tristan Paylor 1:25:11

let's do it. So who who wants to introduce mercury,

Kyle Pierce 1:25:18

I think is your channel called Mercury Rising.

Tristan Paylor 1:25:21

That's true.

Joe G. 1:25:22

Or my channel is mercury rising.

Kyle Pierce 1:25:26

This is your time in the spotlight. You've been chosen me,

Joe G. 1:25:29

I feel like, my main thing with mercury is just that. Like, it's just everything. It can be anything that I want. And just goes with it. And it has fun. I think like the, the main keyword that I like to use with mercury is just the sense of like, fun and excitement, like everything is exciting. There's nothing that is not good. Yeah, everything can just be used, or at least twisted or changed to fit a specific purpose of that specific moment. Yeah, I think Mercury is good. I like grabbing those little bits and pieces, and changing it to what it wants it to be, or even changes to be that thing. to assimilate.

Kyle Pierce 1:26:18

Yeah. Like you were saying before, how mercury can be. It can be made, you know, monolithic or benefic, or, you know, can switch teams. One of the things that Mercury is associated with his trade, right, and I like to think about, like, wandering traders, you know, and how they would get, like, kind of the bead on that town, you know, and like they they could turn on the charisma, you know, switch it a little bit to fit in, you know, am I talking to a king? Am I trying to sell to a king? Or am I trying to sell Who am I trying to sell to, and being able to adapt and sort of mold the expression around, you know, what its circumstances are? It's a very like mercurial trait. But it's also like putting everything to use, like you were saying, I like that, because while it can be rendered Melissa Kenefick. You know, it's like, Mercury knows what to do with everything it can find a use for it.

Tristan Paylor 1:27:11

Mercury is like the true neutral alignment. Yeah, there's no. Like, if if it can be a control. Yeah, you could, you could make an argument for chaotic neutral, I guess. But I feel like true neutral is really the most chaotic in a sense, because it's like switching back and forth between chaotic and lawful. And, you know, what you're gonna get is whatever is most adapted to that situation.

Kyle Pierce 1:27:36

Yeah, actually, being been reading a lot of like, Vedic stuff, and just interested in like, Vedic perspective, mercury, is actually a very stable planet, in that. Pantheon, if you will. And you think about Mercury is the most erratic planet in its cycles, you know, it goes retrograde more than any other planet, it changes direction all the time, you know, changes speed all the time. But when you think about in terms of it's just adapting to things, and how do you remain stable in an environment that is ever changing, you adapt today?

Tristan Paylor 1:28:10

That's a very good point. I think the the characteristic of mercury that I come back to a lot is its purpose as a boundary crosser. And as a planet that represents boundaries that sort of has one foot in two different worlds. It's always kind of straddling the fence. And there's a very spiritual significance to that. Hermes in Greek mythology, who is you know, the Greek deities associated with mercury is famous for being a psychopomp being a guide to the dead. So, you know, Mercury is that one planet that can travel between the world of the living in the world of the dead, just at whim, and you know, can travel between the spiritual world and the mundane world and so Mercury is sort of our bridge between worlds and that's when you think about a lot of the more sort of practical significations of mercury they all come back to that purpose of being a bridge you know, language being one of those those things that language is a bridge between my mind and your mind. You know, my thoughts are silent to you, but I can speak them out loud or write them down and you have access to a hidden world behind my eyes that you couldn't otherwise participate in.

Kyle Pierce 1:29:42

Yeah. Think makes me think about how important Mercury is in you know, you think of like Venus for relationships and stuff, but Mercury is the it's relating things, you know, it's relating not just things but like people, you know how you relate to people is, you know, how do you use language and present yourself in ways that translate meaning to other people. And so having like that a good functioning Mercury is important for not just personal relationships, but like all your relationships and relating, which is everything that we do, you know, you're reading a book, you're, you're relating the symbols of these letters and, you know, creating words out of them. And those Words have meanings and but the word itself has to be put into the context of the sentence and you know, all that's going on in your brain. And it's, it's, that's all at the mercury stuff, you know, that is so essential.

Tristan Paylor 1:30:40

Yeah, I tend to, in modern astrology, the sun and the moon tend to be emphasized as representing the personality, but I tend to really focus on Mercury quite a lot. I mean, the ascendant and mercury are sort of two of the main places I look at if I'm thinking about questions of personality, because how you come across to other people, and how you try to present yourself to other people is all communication, which is all mercury, right? How do you and even you know, nonverbal communication, it's all that attempt to connect at connection at building a bridge between yourself and somebody else. So even you know, like the style of clothes, you wear, your body language, or your tone of voice and all those kinds of things. And those are things that you also can take on an off the sort of changeability and adaptability of mercury, you know, you can you you wear black when you go to a funeral, and you wear formal clothes when you go to a fancy dinner party. And

Kyle Pierce 1:31:40

yes, the idea is about Mercury,

Joe G. 1:31:43

the vast one and in the world. Totally, just not because I have it at my ascendant, or any reason like that.

Kyle Pierce 1:31:53

No, not not at all. I'm gonna try

Joe G. 1:31:55

not to, like, try to remember what I said last time. Yeah. But there was one thing, I guess, are we letting the listeners know that we fucked up and to do it again? Well, we didn't fuck up. Jojje fucked up. And we're

Kyle Pierce 1:32:16

Oh, yeah, I mean, technically, we didn't, we didn't have a backup plan.

Tristan Paylor 1:32:19

Well, it was a collective effort to fail.

Kyle Pierce 1:32:25

Yeah, not participated in the failure. We there

Joe G. 1:32:28

go? Well, I guess it is a good example of how mercury goes retrograde every now and then to have us go retrograde when Mercury is supposed to be coming around. I think that one of the things that I said last time that I really wanted to bring back was just the idea of the the Retrogrades in the whole synaptic cycle and how mercury goes, because he knew what the sun so often, and then goes in and out of the arrays and burn can it's not, it's visible, then it's not sort of thing, just because of the how we were talking about the sun and how it's like, the, the intellect, this all knowing, like, the one of a god sort of thing, and how mercury is able to go there, see what's up, it's burnt in the process. And then it comes out of it trying to translate a fragment of what that experience was like to be one. And I think that one thing that I mentioned last time is that I forget exactly what it is. But in ancient times, there's always like these metaphors of when people are trying to go into these transcendental sort of states to meet God or to see God in some way, shape, or form. But it's always the case that they get there at the very end, but they never actually see God, they'll either just see like the throne, or if they do see God, they go blind. And then just, like, have this moment of dying, and then coming back, and then when you come back, you're ready. Not with God anymore, and you can't really express what you saw. And I think that mercury as the planet of communication kind of speaks of that trying to translate something that's ineffable into something understandable, I guess.

Kyle Pierce 1:34:22

Oh, yeah. No, I love that actually. It's making me think about how, you know, I just like monks, but like, people in different cultures throughout history, like their if they're trying to they'll go through things like fasting or you know, they'll fast for a really long time or they'll you know, way out in the desert for live in a cave for a week to try to like, receive messages from beyond or you know, from God or from the gods or something like that. And like just thinking about mercury, like you're saying goes through this process all the time of going under the beams The sun getting to the center of the Sun. And it's goes through that process more than any other planet like, what three times a year? Maybe six. But yeah, but it's like the planet that's most suited to that as well. There's kind of like a no, it's almost like a Mercury doesn't really get associated with death and rebirth, per se. But it is. I mean, it's the translator, right? It's translating everything. So if you're gonna have any kind of experience, you really need mercury to, to communicate it, translate it into words that other people don't understand.

Joe G. 1:35:37

Right? I do like that. You mentioned the whole death and rebirth thing, because I think that, like sometimes we over look and like in modern astrology, that like the psychopomp nests of mercury, but also, like, just reading some of the ancients every now and then you're gonna stumble upon somebody saying that mercury is the only planet that will rejoice in the 12th house or Mercury is the only planet that will rejoice in the eighth house. And it's all like the bad house. Mercury is good.

Kyle Pierce 1:36:09

Oh, yeah. But I mean, it's probably one of the core significations of Mercury's is that ability to adapt to its circumstances. On something like Vedic Astrology, you know, Mercury's considered a significant and I can reason why, because it's so important in terms of relaying and creating relationships and connecting things together, it has like a sort of Venus II component, but it really has like, kind of the components of all the planets and built within it, the ability to adapt all of them, you know, it becomes like, whatever it's around, really, Mercury and the moon are the most because you don't think of receptivity with mercury, but it is. It's rare, it is it's very receptive becomes very much like, what, what a what it's around, you know, so I mean, that makes sense that, like, you know, it's mercury in the 12th house, like, it's going to adapt the 12th house it's going to do, it's gonna make the best of the 12th house, actually no couple people with other than you Joji with very prominent Mercury's. And there's this really crazy quality of just, there's like, almost once a scavenger, but just super, super resourceful, like where they will. I have a bit of this quality myself, I see like a couch, on the side of the road, I eyeball it, and to see if I want to take it, you know, the just making use of what's around making

Tristan Paylor 1:37:49

says, making me think of the story of Moses receiving the 10 commandments as a very Mercury synoptic cycle story, a very significant tree retrograde story where, you know, Moses is the messenger, he's the one tasked with communicating this important message to his people. And he has to sort of separate himself and go up the mountain and be obscured from the people in order to receive this message. Just like you know, when Mercury dives under the beams of the sun, and we can't see it, you know, it spends a lot of time invisible because it flies so close to the sun. And during that time, Mercury's serving an important function because it is be you know, becoming one with God, so to speak. But in the mundane world, all this chaos occurs as a result of that, right? Like Moses goes up the mountain, the people get restless, you know, you have the golden calf and all these shenanigans go down when Mercury disappears to go commune with God, and then, you know, comes back and has, you know, the stone tablets with the commandments written on it as sort of like the effort to translate what God is trying to tell the people. It's a very mercurial story that never occurred to me until just now.

Joe G. 1:39:02

Oh, that's perfect. I love that. There's just something that I committed a crime that I absolutely hate. Because usually I have a big pet peeve when of when people gender mercury as he and I did that I might just like to correct and go with V because I think it's the better permanent and for mercury.

Tristan Paylor 1:39:25

Yeah, I think my favorite feature of mercury is that in every way, Mercury defies all of the categories in astrology, like mercury is the only planet that exalts itself. You know, it's, it's the planet that can be you know, either diurnal or nocturnal, depending where it is it just in all the ways that like the planets are neatly categorized. Mercury is the rebel that breaks all of those rules of categorization even within like a very structure system like traditional astrology Mercury breaks the rules. Yeah. And kind of represents those situations or people that are either hard to categorize or you know, defy categories or cross boundaries, or build bridges. Like the psychopomp role being, you know, you're building a bridge between two worlds between, like Hermes travels between the worlds of the living in the world of the dead, and the sort of connecting those two categories in his of both worlds, or of neither worlds. And so bridges that gap.

Kyle Pierce 1:40:36

Yeah, when you think of mercury is really its role is the definer of the category. It is like the categorizer, you know, it's the sorter to have something like language, you have to create a container for, for that idea, which be a word, right? This word means this set of symbols or whatever, or this symbol means this set of ideas. And it's interesting, because mercury being the categorizer, it is very hard to categorize because it will float between all the different categories. Makes me think of like, if you're the speaker, you know, you can't really hear yourself speak at the same time. Or, you know, you can't see your own eyeballs, right. may not be relevant. That's what's coming. to Korea. Whatever comes to my mind, that stuff comes in

Joe G. 1:41:36

it goes. And then it comes back and goes, yeah, and then it goes again. It changes constantly.

Tristan Paylor 1:41:42

I think speed is another important signification of mercury, just oh yeah, no being moving around the Sun faster than any other planet. And you know, you think of the speed of thought that is the speed of mercury.

Joe G. 1:41:57

And I don't know if you guys will agree with that. One thing that I think a lot about because like, especially with ideas of speed, and all that sometimes gets conflated with the immune significations as well. And just this idea of like, unreliability with mercury, because it's so fast, and because it goes retrograde so often. That's the thing that I don't necessarily always agree with. I think that, like we're talking about with mercury, and like, tools and resourcefulness. I don't think it's more so I don't think it's about being unreliable. But Mercury is more so about being in those ups and downs. And this is a delineation that you often see whenever Mercury's involved in ancient texts, that the life is subjected to ups and downs, but then that person still thrives through it anyways, out of their own efforts, and I think that mercury is that willingness to go into and have nothing and make something out of nothing. And then later on, you're praised for being the person who brought up I don't know the liar, or who I'm meant to that. But initially, it was never a thought. And I think that mercury might seem unreliable, because it's in that frame of thought outside the ordinary, it's actually really reliable.

Tristan Paylor 1:43:25

I totally agree with that. It's something I think about a lot with both Mercury and the moon because they are very similar. And you know, they're both fast moving and both changeable and they go through these very rapid cycles, you know, in the case of the moon, the phases of the moon in the case of Mercury, the retrograde cycles, but they are nonetheless orderly, they're cyclical, you know, we know they're predictable we actually know when they're gonna happen I think you know, mercury gets a bad rap for being inconsistent or unreliable because fundamentally we're afraid of change. And you know, we want we don't want to have to adapt to new situations we want things to stay the same sometimes even if you know, that means complacency with a bad situation. So you know, the the reality that life is actually you know, constantly in motion and constantly changing is scary. It's just fundamentally scary to human beings and sort of universal experience. So I think part of like coming to terms with the reality of mercury is becoming comfortable with change and recognizing that like, it actually comes in cycles like there actually is what appears chaotic actually has an underlying order like I think of I spend a lot of time watching cobweb weaving spiders in my home and they they they're so mercurial to me with like, the webs being you know, an example of of connecting so many things together for one like all of these, this like largest assortment of connections just seems like and it looks sort of like a nervous system, which is the Mercurial part of the body. So that all seems very mercurial to me. But also the fact that cobweb weavers their webs just look like a giant mess. Like they look utterly chaotic to us, unlike, you know, orb weavers where it seems like very organized, but there is an underlying structure to a cobweb, weavers web that we don't necessarily perceive with our senses that is perceptible to the spider. And so you know, it's sort of like mercury may appear chaotic, but there's an underlying order or structure to what looks like chaos. And, you know, it's up to us to sort of get in tune with that in order to see the underlying structure behind the apparent chaos.

Kyle Pierce 1:45:46

Yeah, I think it's important to note that before going to Uranus, really all the significations of Uranus belonged to Mercury the sudden events and changes. But I kind of I'm glad that there is a planet like Uranus with its particular flavor of suddenness and an explosive change. Is that like you were saying? Exactly. It's mercury. It's, it's almost like predictable change. When you think of the Sun transiting around at the sun, sun doesn't travel around the world, obviously. The Earth travels, yeah, what do you think of the Sun changing signs through the seasons, and Mercury is kind of going back and forth across the sun. It's sort of handling that sort of regular change, it's ushering it's managing the chaos that is sort of inherent in change, and kind of thinking about spiders, you know. Spiders have, like, they change their webs all the time, like something big gets continent, they leave that webs gone, but they have to, they're not going to like, Okay, I'm just gonna die. My web is gone. That way, you know, that they will adapt to the circumstances they will adapt to the new circumstances. Yeah, but the the association with mercury in instability, it wants to stabilize things through change, right? If you refuse to adapt to a situation, your you know, your situation is going to devolve into chaos,

Tristan Paylor 1:47:19

just on the note of Uranus kind of taking some of the significations that traditionally belong to Mercury. One of those is divination and astrology in particular. Traditionally, Mercury was associated with astrology, with divination in general with prophecy. And you know, the sun also was associated with divination and prophecy. So it's the relationship between the Sun and Mercury, that really sort of symbolizes the process of you know, you approach God ie the sun, and you receive some kind of message, you know, or you approach the heavens, you know, in the case of astrology, you get some kind of message, you translate that message into symbols that people can understand and then you communicate that message and so Mercury is sort of the Augur or the diviner

Joe G. 1:48:07

right and I see some of that with Uranus as well I was very resistant as a, an avid Mercury lover. But I do see some of the some of why astrology is also very Uranian. But one thing that I I liked when you mentioned Uranus, is that right after you said that mercury tries to maintain order through the chaos, and I think that Uranus has a similar function, but it does the opposite. It takes what's ordered and then tries to maintain chaos through that order.

Tristan Paylor 1:48:44

It's a really good way of putting it oh yeah,

Kyle Pierce 1:48:46

think about ordered systems and the idea of entropy, how ordered systems are always kind of slowly gravitating towards a state of disorder, but you have to kind of maintain that system and you have to adapt it adapted to changing circumstances preventing the inevitable entropy and decay of a system. You really need mercury to get in there and to fix things and update things, I mean, mercury gets this association with with traders in travel, short more short distance travel. I do like to think of the wandering trader mercury, you know, it shows up at a village and it can assess the circumstances of the village. You know, what are they short on the Shortland green, they need some carrots. I have carrots, I will sell the carrots at this price. I can sell it for a little higher to these guys, and make a profit. But then when it goes to the next village, it will take on a totally different approach. It'll adapt its approach based on the new town that it's in, while you think like Jupiter being like a wandering proselytizer like recall that those kind of think of the name,

Tristan Paylor 1:50:05

like an evangelist or a missionary.

Kyle Pierce 1:50:08

Missionary, that's the word I'm thinking of, they are going to go to each town and they are going to preach the same thing. They're going to preach the same gospel. Even if they might get sacrificed to the gods to the other gods, you know, they will kind of maintain that I think Mercury is a little more savvy.

Tristan Paylor 1:50:25

I like that because there is a natural opposition between Jupiter and mercury. That's a really good illustration of how that works, where you know, Mercury's domiciles are Gemini and Virgo, which are opposite from Jupiter's domiciles of Sagittarius and Pisces, you know, Mercury will go from place to place and become like the people that they find there. Whereas Jupiter will go from place to place and preach the same message regardless and kind of try to get the people there to conform to their message. Oh, yeah.

Kyle Pierce 1:50:55

Mercury and Jupiter is it is nice to like, identified to like, separate the significations of planets because there is always overlap. Mercury if you know Jupiter is like the big grand vision, you know, Mercury is the details and the slug the structuring of, of division. Get the meaning of a whole sentence with Jupiter. But Mercury strings the words together into to form a whole sentence.

Tristan Paylor 1:51:27

Yeah, we have Gog back officially.

Joe G. 1:51:33

My brother all of a sudden just I thought he was vacuuming but he got this. What are those? Like? Hoverboards or whatever? Oh, like as Mercury. Yeah, like those. They're like boards, but you just like lean forward for them to move. Oh, yeah. They were banned for like a solid second because they were exploding. Like when they first came out. Yeah, it was. It was wild. I almost bought my son one. Yeah, my brother got one for Christmas. They're good. Now they were banned in 2012. Ish, I guess actually makes

Kyle Pierce 1:52:10

me think of mercury a little bit because we the Gemini side of mercury is like the the kind of novelty and interest in new things and trying different things. And

Joe G. 1:52:21

it's like, makes me think of my brother as a Gemini. Oh, yeah.

Kyle Pierce 1:52:23

Well, it makes me think of like toys even. And kids and toys. It's like they play with this toy for a little while. They love it, like, Oh, my God, this this toy is the thing right now. But then they get bored, and they move on to another toy. And then you end up like I did very recently, with a ton of old toys that, you know, maybe more more curial person would have an easy time disposing of but a moon oriented person is going to, you know, have to cry a little bit every time to throw away one of these precious toys. Because of all the memories that are associated with it. It's awful.

Joe G. 1:53:02

I can relate. And I think that's a good I don't know if you guys were ever mentioned this after I left, but one of the major keywords for mercury that I like to use is just the idea of fun. And I think usually the sun gets that just because of the you know, like Leo as fifth house sort of deals. But I think that Mercury has this ability to just have fun with mundane, absolutely boring thing. Yeah. To like a very mercurial person. It's the most interesting thing in the world. It can be some, I don't know, some ancient astrology book that makes no sense. But you're there sitting with a paragraph for three hours trying to understand. And it's just a blast.

Kyle Pierce 1:53:53

Yeah. And think about what Mercury is like, it's it doesn't necessarily need to mean something, it doesn't have to fit into a bigger broader scope necessarily, like Jupiter wants to fit into a big broader scope. Mercury is you know, will actually sit down and listen to somebody talk, maybe tell their story because it doesn't necessarily have to fit into their their broader agenda.

Joe G. 1:54:19

It's like the what if factor is what if we did this? Or what about this? And that's how labs explore.

Kyle Pierce 1:54:32

Let's see, yeah, let's see what happens if we mix these two together.

Tristan Paylor 1:54:36

It's it's curiosity for its own sake. And I love that both of Mercury's domiciles are represented by human figures because I feel like that curiosity for its own sake pursuing knowledge for like, presumably no sort of adaptive value whatsoever, but just because you're interested in something obviously that Trade is present in other animals as well. But it is like a it's disproportionately represented in humans, like I am doing. intro to psych and university right now and I was reading content warning for I don't know if this would be like extremely mild body horror, but this researcher who rang it was curious about the mercury is interesting. Yeah, I mean, my Mercury isn't a Mars sign so it's interested in anything horrifying, just for the sake of it. So yeah, like freak me out just so I can anyway. So this, this researcher was interested in the mechanics of hunger, and the actual, like physical mechanics of hunger pangs, what causes that sensation to happen? So he actually figured out that what he could do, like his, his idea was, maybe the stomach expands and contracts. And the contractions when you're hungry is what cause or what caused the sensation of hunger pangs. And so he swallowed a balloon. And whenever he had a hunger paying, he would press a button. And he could measure whether or not the balloon had contracted. And indeed it did. The contractions were what caused the hunger pangs. And I'm sitting there reading this, and I'm like, this is just, this is humanity defined that someone was like, I just need for no reason other than pure curiosity to know the mechanics of how hunger works. So I'm gonna swallow a balloon, like that is just pure mercury to me,

Joe G. 1:56:43

man, it's so true, I spent so much time thinking about this, like, why, like, all no other animal decided to like, make something like the internet, or, I don't know, like a phone or any sort of like mundane tool that just serves mundane purposes. Other than human beings. We just love making sure just for the sake of making Yeah.

Tristan Paylor 1:57:08

and stuff and studying stuff, just for the sake really, we just need to know how things work. And it, it's not like sometimes we will actually harm ourselves in order to learn how things work. Like, you know, the other researchers who you know, studying parasites will actually, like, keep mosquitoes and let mosquitoes feed on them, because they are researching how parasitism works, and the effects of mosquito bites or whatever. And so you've got a scientist who's just like sitting in their lab, with their arm in a tank full of mosquitoes, because they just need to know something is like your, you don't need like it's not necessary, and it is in fact hurting you. But we can't resist learning everything that we can about how the world works.

Joe G. 1:57:49

It's like a reminds me of early Alchemist, which is also a very mercurial thing, that one of the primary ways of testing if something is actually working, was to taste a substance. And like these people are dealing with like lead, mercury, and all these other toxic substances. And it's so funny, because every now and then you're going across, come across a book where they're describing Alchemist. And it's always like this person with gray skin, and what full of blemishes spots in their face, because they're eating literal poison every day of their life. You know why?

Tristan Paylor 1:58:32

It's like, now I understand why alchemy works the way it does in Skyrim, where like, you have to eat the ingredients to know what they do like that is totally mercury. Like, I'm going to eat a B, just a raw B, because I'm going to find out what sort of magical effect this has on my body and then I can figure out how to make a potion out of it. And it's just like, you don't have to go that far. Why don't we go this? Yeah,

Kyle Pierce 1:59:00

you guys might love this because I you immediately had me thinking about Josef Mengele, of course, because you know, who wouldn't think about Josef Mengele. But for people who don't know he was the, the Nazi medical he was definitely a doctor who experimented on Holocaust victims and he because he just want to figure things out in like the worst way possible, do all kinds of horrible things. But he had mercury had to look at his chart as a cancer rising. The nicest thing about cancer risings, but it had Mercury in pisces on the midheaven dispositive by Jupiter in Scorpio on the south node. And just makes me because a lot of that was like make me think about Scorpio general just like we'll just fuck with things. poke at it to see what happens like it's you know, it doesn't mind going into dark places to figure things out. Think of like a fallen mercury. Right? It's might be totally irrelevant. Actually. By sharing because it was really interesting.

Tristan Paylor 2:00:05

It's a very evil, evil mercury. Well, it's

Kyle Pierce 2:00:10

a, this is a think what was so creepy about mercury or about Dr. Mengele. And it's something that's like the dark side of mercury is that sort of indifference that's sort of, it's not moral in its own nature. It's not moralizing per se, while Jupiter might moralize. Mercury is just curious. Mercury just wants to see what happens if you do if you add x and B together. And that can maybe be where it gets really scary.

Joe G. 2:00:38

I think that also has to do with what we were talking about with the sun or oneness or anything like that. Because I think any person who spent any time thinking about oneness and the nature of good and evil, and how those are like two of the same will, at some point have to face the conundrum of Whoa, these are all part of the same sort of thing. So it's kind of, and Mercury is that planet that goes in that realm of oneness so frequently in its experiencing that I think it's, it can be easy for you to get lost and in morals. And I think that, yeah, that Jupiter on the other hand, not to skip planets or anything. Since all the domicile is or mercury poses the domiciles of Jupiter. Jupiter is that piece that comes with the the wisdom to discern like the good from evil, or then Mercury is just there just to like, see it. It's just, it's just yeah, it doesn't really care.

Tristan Paylor 2:01:40

I do tend to talk about the planets in in pairs or groups because the everything in astrology is balanced. And Jupiter and Mercury having sort of opposing principles, I think is really important for illustrating what both of them mean and that sort of spectrum of morality where, you know, Jupiter is very concerned with morality and with right and wrong, and Mercury is more concerned with what just is, regardless, you know, it's more neutral. And, you know, the ideal is to find some sort of moderation between those two extremes, you know, you get the zealotry on on the extreme end with Jupiter, and then you get that sort of apathetic, you know, I don't care what, what the cost is, for finding out this information or whether it is morally right or wrong. I'm just going to do this thing, you know, on the extreme end for

Kyle Pierce 2:02:30

mercury, but then yeah, it's always the interaction between they balance each other, if only we could experiment with a planet totally by itself, you know, seeing what it would do. I don't know if it would do anything, really, because it I think all the planets need other planets to interact with on on some level to really pull significations out.

Tristan Paylor 2:02:51

Yes, it's like it's the spectrum between extreme moral relativism versus like, morality is absolute. And those are like the two sort of polar extremes. And between the two of them you find like the happy medium?

Joe G. 2:03:03

Yeah. I think it's super interesting how, like Jupiter is also the I know that we're talking about Mercury. But Jupiter being the planet that opposes appointment of that isn't neutral, instead of like being a planet that opposes like a benefic or malefic. Think Venus and Mars is like, very evident. It's like, pleasant, not so pleasant things. But then with mercury, it's like, I don't know. And I definitely.

Tristan Paylor 2:03:33

Yeah, yeah, that is, as an important distinction.

Kyle Pierce 2:03:38

Something I was thinking about with mercury, too, is that the sign that mercury exalts in is Virgo exalts itself there, but Virgo is a sign where the benefits don't do particularly well. Right. And we don't like say Mercury is a malefic at all. In some systems, it's so benefic, you know, or it's, it's the nature of whatever.

Tristan Paylor 2:03:59

Alright, yeah, either way, yeah, whatever it's closest to you or, you know, if it's diurnal or nocturnal planet in a, you know, certain type of chart, it kind of can go back and forth.

Kyle Pierce 2:04:11

That is, it's an interesting way to think about the nature of mercury in that it's something about it is not geared towards beneficence, per se, or Maleficent. Like it's, there's a detachment, you think of like the two signs that Mercury rules you get Gemini, which associated with like the hands, and Virgo, which is associate with like digestion, it's very much they're both super crucial parts of the body that are necessary for everything, but they're all very they're, they're interacting with the environment, you know, your intestines are taking your food and pulling up the nutrients and pulling things apart and you know, processing it to into something useful, while the hand You know, they're manipulating the environment, building tools, creating things, managing, writing, you know, all the things that we do with our hands

Joe G. 2:05:20

one thing that I was thinking as you were talking about, and maybe this was where your your were going with it, but, um, just to speak on the neutrality of mercury, I think it almost reminds me of like the sun in the moon more than any other planet, and maybe has to do with the fact that it's hanging out with the luminaries more than a hangs out with any of the other planets. So I like that. One thing they were talking about, like with the hands in the stomach, these are all things are both, like very much vital for human living, to be like, nice and efficient, just the same way, like the sun and the moon are very vital, like the heart and the stomach and things like that. Yeah, so

Kyle Pierce 2:06:06

yeah, so like mercury has to handle in the digestive system. Sometimes. I mean, the digestive system is not the most specific place. When you think about it on hand, it's dealing with, you know, it's dealing with whatever you put in your body. Sometimes that's poison. Sometimes, that's, you know, delicious, nutritious fruit, you know, or mixture of the two, but it has to process that those things either way and life, inherently we have to deal with benefic and malefic stuff all the time. You know, hands can be used to strangle somebody that can be used to, you know, pet a kitten or hold a baby. All those things are parts of life and Mercury is, you know, of all the planets like the most adaptable to all of them.

Tristan Paylor 2:06:51

Think on the note of adaptability. One of the things that makes Mercury unique and its significations is the sheer variety and number of significations it gets throughout both traditional and modern texts. It makes me laugh every time I look at various valance anthology where he describes the planets and Mercury's section, you know, he gives significations for all the planets. And Mercury's section is like four times longer than any other planets like Mercury. Mercury does. Yeah, it does. Everything does a bit of everything. The sheer number of occupations and areas of life and kinds of people. And something I find characterizes pretty much all of the Mercurial people I know is just the sheer number of hobbies, talents, jobs, interests that they have. And I don't know, that old joke that the sign of Gemini is interested in so many things that it actually has to divide itself into two people just to be able to do all the things that it wants to do and learn about all the different interests that it has. And I have my I have a friend who is a Gemini rising with Mercury conjunct her ascendant. So Mercury in Gemini rising. And it's like every day, she surprises me, she's my, she's my age, I'm 33 years old. And I don't know how, in her 33 years of life, she has managed to do the number of things she's done. And it's not like she's just, you know, dabbled in things like she has reached a level of mastery in an incredible number of skills. And like, has done so many jobs often simultaneously, like doing four or five jobs simultaneously in three different areas. And I don't know where she finds the time or energy. But that that is a quality of mercury that I think makes it unique among the planets is its ability to do that. And just like the variability that it has,

Joe G. 2:09:00

like what you were saying about doing many things, I think, is one of the reasons why mercury and Saturn do so well together. It's that ability to do all of the things but also have the diligence and determination and the slow and steady sort of like focus to do one thing and, and this is a thing that I'm learning about my own chart because I have mercury and Saturn Trine one another and it's never a thing that I really paid attention to. But one of my favorite things in life is to do lists. There's nothing that brings me more joy and my life than to just build a list with like 40 items a day and just go checking one by one and some of those are just like feed the cat. But they're just there like and have the pleasure of like checking them at some point and I feel like that's such a both mercury and Saturn sort of deal where you're working really hard at something, but you're also like, really meticulously sorting out I'll do this at this time and then that at that time and then that at that time then that other time, because even with astrology too, I went on to delineations that they always give for like mercury and Saturn together. Is in the chart of astrologers is that that astrologer will be like the best astrologer and will gotta gotta know dictions will be infallible. I'm like, Oh, geez. No question about mercury and Saturn together, I have them try it. So maybe that that's not the same is an aspect it is an aspect it is. But yeah, I think that, just that, with Saturn being the planet, that symbolizes time, and then Mercury being with that planet, and that's just going so fast. I think it really meets in the middle of Saturn's slow pace, and does something really interesting with them.

Kyle Pierce 2:11:00

I think it's a really good point because Mercury does that is very mercury, Saturn, but then you think of like mercury in relationship or aspect to all the other planets, like mercury has this ability to sort of bring out almost the most productive qualities of every planet, you know, to put them to use to make them useful. And it's yeah, it's like you don't know. It's like you, you put some planets together. You don't really like Moon and Mars most of the time, like ever. There's things that comes with a lot of stuff, mercury, you can put with pretty much any planet and it will find a way to be useful, or find a way to put those significations to use purpose them.

Tristan Paylor 2:11:40

usefulness is such a good keyword. I was just thinking of Mercury's both domicile and exaltation in Virgo, which is a sign that is associated with service. And Mercury's association with service I think is one that I don't hear talked about as often. Like, I definitely hear it come up when people describe Virgo, but not Mercury itself. And Mercury represents the Herald, the one who delivers the message of the monarch. Mercury is not the monarch, they're the messenger of the monarch. You know, they're, they're the helper planets. They're also Mercury's associated with medicine, and healing and doctors and nurses. So that that quality of being useful of being helpful of being of service in some way, whether that service is being someone's assistant, or sending a message or helping somebody heal from an illness. I think that's an important characteristic of mercury. And I think like the qualities of flexibility and versatility and speed really kind of all tie into that. Like why is mercury so helpful and so good at being useful and of service because mercury is so versatile and adaptable and you know, can sort of find a solution in any situation you can throw at them really because

Joe G. 2:13:04

because anything can become mercurial to like even just like going through all the delineations like you, you think of gyms, you think of Mars, but then you add mercury to that, then you get a person who's absolutely yes and have has like tables with all the calories that they can take in that has like a whole schedule for work and all that stuff. Mercury is the the planet and that's that really brings a structure wherever it goes.

Tristan Paylor 2:13:30

It brings the nerdiness to any anything you could possibly be interested in like you could you could you know care about your health and care about fitness, you could be a fitness nerd and that's you

Kyle Pierce 2:13:41

can take it and integrate it into your everyday life I can make everything about fitness, fitness calendars,

Tristan Paylor 2:13:49

and like just really care about the minutia. dig into

Kyle Pierce 2:13:53

the details, you know, getting the right sweat bands, you know the quality of the fabric of the sweat band, really nobody knows

Joe G. 2:14:02

macro macros and the micros or whatever

Tristan Paylor 2:14:07

and Mercury Mercury is the one talking shop about whatever the particular thing is you know whether it's fitness or or fixing a car or you know any other number of things that you might be interested in you know mercury can talk shop about that.

Kyle Pierce 2:14:24

I would like to hear actually this people now is I want to know their Mercury placement and what they're nerdy about. I wonder if that will

Tristan Paylor 2:14:31

tell you like

Joe G. 2:14:34

what are your Mercury placements and what are you already about?

Kyle Pierce 2:14:38

Yeah. I heard about many things. I mercury in Taurus in the 11th house. I get really nerdy about astrology lately, but my you know, my nerdiness is have changed probably over time. I used to be a bit of an art nerd. music nerd nice I would say I am a nerd about history as well. And I think that might come from the moon is making a is applying to an opposition with mercury in the moon very much gets associated with history, memory and it's squared by Mars and Aquarius. So actually a very specific period of history. It's been a source of just total obsession for me. Just Early Modern period in Baltic Europe, Baltic Sea area bordering the Baltic Sea. Nobody has any interest in it. Now, there's actually a small small group of people that are similarly obsessed. But yeah, but you

Tristan Paylor 2:15:43

guys, I love all of this because you've got like the it's in Taurus. It's in like a Venus ruled sign. So you get the art nerdiness and then you're obsessed with like war history, which is very, you know, Mars. Oh, yeah. Mercury and then you know, Mars is in Aquarius, which has to be different and be interested in the most obscure thing possible. So it's, that's, that's beautiful.

Joe G. 2:16:06

Chart. Oh, man, that's funny.

Tristan Paylor 2:16:11

My Mercury is in Aries in the 10th house. It is in a very, very tight applying sextile with Venus and I was an art nerd. That was my, my identity in high school was being an art nerd. And I did go to art school for almost a year and then life circumstances made it so that I couldn't carry on but yeah, that was my my area of study for a bit. I also have a Saturn overcoming my Mercury by square. So I don't know my my Mercury is kind of a mixed bag. And what am I nerdy about? I am one of those people who can't. Who can't have any chill about anything I'm interested in, which I think is probably a very mercury in Aries quality, you know, is there's no there are no half measures. If I like something, I go full nerd, and dig into all the minutia. Or, you know, yeah, there's no I'm not casually interested in anything. I was always really obsessed with, with nature, with biology, with zoology with psychology, anything that has to do with how creatures work or how their minds work. And I'm a psychology student. And, you know, like, yeah, like I've have been, and maybe it's sort of Angular Mercury where, like, I can't settle on one thing, like I I'm interested in more things than I have time to be interested in. So like, obviously, I'm interested in astrology. And since I'm interested in astrology, you know, I spent years reading obscure texts about astrology because I have no chill. I got interested in hockey a few years ago, because my best friend grew up watching hockey. And I could not just be a casual hockey man, I had to dive in with both feet. And within like the first, you know, six months of being a hockey fan, I knew like the name of every player in the league, and like more than I reasonably should know about their stats, and you know, all the arguments between like old school and new school approaches to hockey and yeah, magic, the occult, all that kind of stuff. I'm nerdy about two. And now I'm playing d&d. So I also have no children that, you know, we started playing d&d, it was just going to be like a cute fun thing. And that was taken over my entire life. And I spend like six hours a day talking about it. So that's, that's my mercury. It's, it's fun to like, I've never really I have a very Marzieh chart. And I've never like, I'm generally a pretty peace loving person. Like, I'm a gentle, agreeable, like don't rock the boat kind of person in a lot of ways. So I never really saw it. But now when I'm thinking about the things I get interested in, it's like, yeah, like, I like making my imaginary characters fight each other. Like, I'm really, really into that. And so maybe I'm more of a mercury in Aries than they think. Or it's like, I get more into like, I don't play sports, but they get really into the like, intellectual side of sports. And then like, you know, playing violent fantasy games.

Kyle Pierce 2:19:33

Oh, yeah. Got some of that. It seems like a hockey fan.

Tristan Paylor 2:19:37

What about you, Joe? Gee, yeah, you gotta spell. What are your nerdy about?

Joe G. 2:19:44

I mean, with the mercury out the ascendant? It depends on the week. I feel you. Right. Like with, like, you're saying, Tristan, there's literally zero show it's either I live my most recent thing is cryptocurrency I just became absolutely obsessed with it because I've been following a lot of Adam summers material and as a student of astrology to get the exact time that a transaction was first made just sounds very interesting to

Tristan Paylor 2:20:23

me I love with the Saturn Trine

Joe G. 2:20:27

right and mercury in my second. That's brilliant. Yeah, and I was I was always thinking about this because I never could really get how mercury in my second house made me nerdy about second house things. And I think one of the big things is that I always liked since and I always wanted to, like buy them in order to like resell them synthesizers, just like play with them. A little band just Yeah, had far too many

Kyle Pierce 2:20:58

synthesizer obsession for a while.

Joe G. 2:21:03

Well, I do have that same sextile to Venus. And I was very much an art nerd. When you were telling you your story I was. I was actually like, very blown away because that was literally how it went for me too. I went to art school for painting and drawing and I stayed there for a year and then I swapped into sculpture. And then I left because I decided I wanted to make music instead. And then I made music and then I decided I wanted to be an astrologer. And then I am now an astrologer who is dabbling with cryptocurrency.

Tristan Paylor 2:21:38

I just I feel this in my bones where it's like, I was going to be a scientist, and I was going to be an artist and I was gonna be a psychologist and I was going to be an astrologer. And then today, I was like, Maybe I should be a graphic designer. I don't know. I'm 33 years old, please get out of my 10th I was Mercury because I need to choose what I'm going to do with my life at some point. And I can't do like four things simultaneously. I like the cryptocurrency to have such a prominent Mercury because mercury is commerce and money and merchants and traders and all that kind of stuff too. So that fits really beautifully.

Kyle Pierce 2:22:13

It's probably relevant that we're all three of us are all cancer risings. And it's really the Moon who might be like the most changeable of all. Mercury definitely has the moon. It's wanting to change all the time do different things all the time.

Joe G. 2:22:30

Yeah. Well, I have moon and mercury in the same place. Right. So it's kind of hard to distinguish

Kyle Pierce 2:22:40

a Mercury Moon opposition, so I

Joe G. 2:22:42

cannot make a single decision ever in my life.

Tristan Paylor 2:22:47

Who needs decision? Whose job is to make the decision right?

Joe G. 2:22:51

A little bit of everything here and there goes a long way.

Kyle Pierce 2:23:01

So I think split this deep dive into the planets into two episodes, because we're just we're just too deep. For one episode. I think too

Joe G. 2:23:09

much mercury. Do you want to work? Are you in a virtual room? That's what

Kyle Pierce 2:23:19

so yeah, we'll continue on with Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn in the next episode. But for now, what do you what do you have going on right now? Joji

Joe G. 2:23:32

right now. I don't know. Like me personally. Not a lot, but I'm working on. On a lot of stuff with Gemini Brett. He's working on starting his podcast again. And he needed a co host and I'll be co hosting his new podcast or his new old podcast storytelling. I think by the time this episode goes live, or first episode will also be live with storytelling.

Kyle Pierce 2:24:01

Yeah. Starring as like your friend it's actually more like your permission. My son when he was like to have like the worst Michigan accent ever. You always call my name, dad. Anyway, sorry. No, I want to check it out. That sounds that sounds cool.

Joe G. 2:24:35

Oh, yeah, I'm super stoked for the first episode. I actually have like quite the task on it because we're gonna be talking about fate versus free will and I'm on fate side and Gemini. Brett is on freewill side and then we'll debate

Kyle Pierce 2:24:52

fun night so I want to include a link to that show in on any of your channel. Oh,

Joe G. 2:25:00

yes, I do have my channel Mercury Rising. Yes, I do have my my YouTube, which I'm shifting gears a little bit so I'm probably not going to be there active there for a solid time but I'm planning on doing more video essays spread specifically focusing on parallels between music theory and astrology. And I love that like just working on like music talismans and stuff like that and how that can be

Tristan Paylor 2:25:33

nice. Oh, that's so cool.

Joe G. 2:25:35

Thank you.

Kyle Pierce 2:25:36

In are you currently doing? consultations?

Joe G. 2:25:39

Yes. I'm always thinking consultations always at the mercury rising not calm.

Kyle Pierce 2:25:45

Mercury Rising calm. Yeah, I had an awesome reading with Joe G. So highly recommended. Oh,

Joe G. 2:25:51

yes. And by the time this goes live, I'll probably will start. I'll be offering election consultations as well. Yeah, actually, I'll probably make a code for promo code for your show. For anyone who listens, awesome wants to get an electrical. Let's give like, I'm just making it up on spot. I'll give like a an 80% discount on whatever price you decide when the time comes around.

Kyle Pierce 2:26:17

It's highly preferential Yeah, sounds great. Maybe I'll use it.

Joe G. 2:26:23

I guess the code will be hotline. So just use hotline on checkout. 80% discount. There we go.

Tristan Paylor 2:26:30

Nice.

Joe G. 2:26:32

Well, good. No, I was gonna ask what we're gonna say.

Kyle Pierce 2:26:40

I was gonna ask Tristan, what what he has going on right now.

Tristan Paylor 2:26:44

I've got the usual stuff going on. I've been on a little bit of a creative hiatus, just because of the holidays. But I'm hoping to start doing some more writing soon. So you can find my writing on astrology. On my blog, which is bad sign astrology on Tumblr. You can find little snippets of astrology info on my Instagram account as well which is also at bad sign astrology. And I do natal consultations and like short term forecasts and synastry consultations as well. So if you are interested in booking a consultation with me you can visit my website. Bad sign astrology.ca

Kyle Pierce 2:27:33

Awesome. As for me, I my consultations have been closed for about a good week or so because I've been going through a move but chaos is finally starting to settle and should be should be open for consultations again by the time this episode airs. Of course you can book at Kyle Pierce astrology.com. And yeah, hopefully I'll get back into generating more just general content, probably by the time being as it'll just probably end up being by the time director candidates when things will probably start to kick into gear but hopefully sooner. We'll see.

Tristan Paylor 2:28:15

Yeah, Venus retrograde has been kind of a nice little break from creating publicly and you know, just been creating privately and you know, maybe by the time Venus goes direct, I will come out from the shadows again. Nice,

Kyle Pierce 2:28:33

but yeah, and it definitely looking forward to Georgie joining us for the second part of this episode.

Joe G. 2:28:38

Of course. Yeah.

Tristan Paylor 2:28:39

Thank you for listening and thank you so much for your your time and expertise. God it's been wonderful chatting with you.

Joe G. 2:28:45

Well, thank you for having me. It's a blast.

Kyle Pierce 2:28:49

Alright, yeah. Thanks for listening. And we will see you all next time. That mustache brush I do love the mustache cover

Joe G. 2:28:58

so it's so sad because I've been working so hard and then

Kyle Pierce 2:29:06

if you have questions you would like to hear answered on strategy hotline. Send us an email at strategy hotline pod@gmail.com.

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai